My M20 Swap

[Deutschman]

I am sorry. I meant to update this thread after talking to Jeremy on the phone about the valves.

Secondly I am not sure who I talked to first. I talked to two people. The first person was VERY helpful, and I had a good time talking my problem threw with him. He seamed to be interested in what I had to say, and told me to call back after I had received specific facts from my machinist about the valves, as he said he was interested in what was wrong with them. He also told me that machinists can be overly picky some times, and this might just be such a case.

I called my machinist right away, and he told me that he thought that the valves margin was off, which would mess with the valve tip height and rocker geometry. He also said that he was disappointed in the fact that the valves had not been coated/skinned in anything.

Right after I received this information, I called you guys back. The second gentleman I talked to wanted nothing to do with me. He was defensive and interrupted me a few times. I tried to tell him that I had nothing against Ireland, and that I had been told by the first person I talked to to call back with details. He did not seam to care, and told me to send them back if I felt like listening to my picky machinist.

Maybe my first post came off a bit wrong. I tend to over react a bit some times I will admit it. I did not mean to point any fingers, and actually was genuinely surprised that something may be wrong with the valves.

I just ordered a set of OE valves from Blunt (Steve). I am going to bring them in to the shop and compare them against the ones I have from Ireland. See what my machinist says about them compared to each other. It might really be a case of a super fussy machinist. Or, maybe I ended up with a pore set of valves. Even with modern machining things can come out unequal some times. I don't think you guys have the time to check ever set of valves that come in ether.

I have received things such as the sway bar kit that had over sized bushings, and poorly painted bars in the past. There is just no way around that. How ever that is a whole other story, and %90 of the time I am very happy with the products I receive along with the service provided.

I am very sorry if I have caused any ill feelings, as I really do enjoy your products.

[-=Charley]

haha seems like the first person you talked to was Jeremy and the 2nd was Jeff. j/p

seriously though, I bent some valves in my M20 and just stripped 2 pockets worth of valves from the junkyard. chucked them up (lightly) in the drill press and lapped the best ones into the head.

[Deutschman]

Just got back from the Machine shop after hearing what Tim had to say and show me about the Ireland valves. He was not being overly picky. Let me start off by saying if I had not been in a rush to get to the shop, and had taken each valve out and looked at it, I would have been able to see some of these imperfections with my naked eye no - measuring needed. The intake valves had some really bad metal imperfections because of the way they were machined/produced. The exhaust valves had huge differences in the valve margin, to the point of being able to see it with the naked eye. Non of the valves had a protective coating/skinning (blue chrome) on the stem. Now Tim said they were also made of weaker steel then the valves I got from Blunt, but I can not confirm that my self.

Now for some pictures.

Intake:

New intake valve. Heat treated smooth surface.

Ireland intake valve. Bad imperfections in the metal!

New

Ireland

Exhaust:

New

Ireland

Valve margin on the exhaust valves:

Naked eye

Measuring

A good valve should also have a protective smooth metal coating on the stem. The new valves I got from Blunt came with a Blue Chrome coating on the stem. It is a bit hard to see in the pictures, but if you take the valve and look up close you can see where the Blue Chrome starts and stops.

The Ireland valve does not have this.

Basically these valves will work... but if you want to run your motor for another 100,000 then these are not the valves to go with. If you are spending hundreds of dollars on head work and getting a 3 angle valve job, these are not the valves to go with.

Sadly this is a case of trying to save money buy getting valves made in Asia (China) for a few bucks each, and then selling them for the same price as I got my Blunt valves for.

The Ireland valves were $259.20 with out the shipping. I got the nice valves from Blunt (Steve) for $234.84 with free over night shipping.

I am sorry to call Ireland out like this, but these really are pore valves, and maybe they will start selling a better valve some time soon.

[potentialm20]

No need to be sorry for calling them out. I really appreciate the information, and they should be prepared for their products to stand up against others in a competitive market place. Let us know if they allow you to return the product for a refund--it will affect my choice to shop from them in the future.

Looks like your project is coming along nicely. Can't wait to make some real progress on mine.

[Deutschman]

I already contacted them a few days ago, and they told me it would be no problem to send them back. Popped them in the mail today.

[tjones02]

I've dealt with Tim at Morgan's before and respect his knowledge and experience, the man builds 5K hp offshore boat engines...... He is picky, but there is no excuse for what I can clearly see by these pictures. Good on you for returning that junk and going with factory parts.

[AceAndrew]

I've dealt with Tim at Morgan's before and respect his knowledge and experience, the man builds 5K hp offshore boat engines...... He is picky, but there is no excuse for what I can clearly see by these pictures. Good on you for returning that junk and going with factory parts.

There's a little difference between a offshore race motor and and mildly warmed over m20. They have been used in many horsepower M20's without issue. Regardless I'll be happy to run these returned valves in my own M20 swap, so I should be thanking you.

[Deutschman]

There is a difference between "working" and "working well". It would be to your credit and Ireland's if you just admitted these valves are not a good product. They are not and anyone who knows anything could see it.

I could use these valves and so could you, but why would you want to use a bad part in your motor if your are spending hundres on the rest of it? It's like cooking a $100 stake and then eaten it with ketchup. It ruins the whole dish.

[tinkwithanr]

I'm not going to try and turn this thread into an IE debate, so I'll keep this post short. This should be about deutschman's swap, but since the pictures were posted here this seems to be the place to put it.

I can definitely understand the aggravation from IE's point of view that there are many threads that they don't get to respond to, keeping the 'debate' about there products very one sided. I can also say that I've talked with Jeremy on the phone and he was very polite, very helpful and I wouldn't hesitate to order from him based on the customer service. That being said the valves shown above are very bad quality for the price. Compared to the stock valves (that were cheaper and are known to last 100k + miles) it's not even close. It's very obvious to see that corners were cut in production, from poor tolerances to the unfinished combustion chamber surface (that would cause some pretty decent 'hot spots', which could lead to detonation) to the lack of a coating. It would be once thing if these were a budget option available for less than the OE parts, as I'm sure they will fit in the engine and the engine will run.

That being said if you have the option of installing these or OE valves from blunt for the same price, it would be OE all day every day. It would be like buying a base 3-series when you could get an m3 for the same money. Will the base model still get you from point a to point b, yes. But why on earth would you pay the same amount for less quality and durability.

I'm sure that some of IE's parts are of very good quality, I was about to pick up one of there SS radiators before I started my own M20 swap due to the positive reviews. That being said this isn't the first negative review I've read about the quality of the machined parts. It doesn't really matter where in the world they are made, whether it's here in the US or overseas, if the quality isn't there.

[Deutschman]

^

Thank you! I could not have said this any better. That is what i was trying to get across in the post above.

If anyone from Ireland would like to discus this further I would be happy to start a separate thread. My email is also available.

Now lets get back to my build before this goes way to fare in the wrong direction! lol

: )

[Deutschman]

Got a few odds and ends in the mail. Mr. Gasket hood pins. I am going to cut the section that holds the stock hood latch out of the engine bay so I have more room.

I also got my Comp Cams Engine Assembly Lube for when the head is back.

[Guest]

I am going to cut the section that holds the stock hood latch out of the engine bay so I have more room.

Don't do that unless you plan to remove the heater box/blower motor and seal that hole off. It's not necessary for the M20 swap and will just dump underhood(burning oil and leaking exhaust) gases into the cabin.

Also, if you just have hood pins it's really easy for someone to open up your hood and screw with stuff if they felt like being assholes.

[Deutschman]

The heater is already gone. This is not going to be a dd car. I car pool with my girl most of the time. The car is almost always parked in a very safe place. I could drill a larger hole threw one or bothe of the pins for a small luggage lock.

[Guest]

I still wouldn't recommend it unless it's going to be a track car. The extra room really doesn't do anything for you and you will also have all those openings for water to get into the engine bay, instead of how it normally drains at least partially away from the motor/electronics.

It also weighs nothing...like 3 or 4lbs. I was kinda disappointed when I removed it from my turbo project and saved almost no weight. You'll regret it later on, I wish I hadn't done it to the turbo project. Solution, I'm trading the 73 for potentialm20's 76 shell, interior, and title.

It's your car, do what you want with it, but I strongly recommend against it.

[Deutschman]

I will definitely take all of that into consideration before I pull the trigger. I really appreciate your input! May have saved me from making a bad decision.