engine and drivetrain dual carburetors

[elvis2002]

Wow interesting stuff Thanks Guys...... I really appreciate it........

Elvis2002

[02for2]

...you MOSTLY contradict yourself right there. I won't start on the rest, but needless to say if your an old fart (or drive like one.) then yes there is little need.

MOST importantly....... I thought this thread was about everybody's 2cents worth on SIDE DRAFT Carburetors.

Not at all. Rather than a dissertation on the subject, I didn't expand on the cost/benefit analysis of dumping hundreds of $$ to gain a couple of feet - to argue the advantage is a never-ending theory. Most street cars are designed to have adequate brakes for the job at hand.

Also, I think in a discussion, it's inappropriate to to inject derogatory descriptions such as 'old fart' into the mix. Shows a lack of respect for your fellow members.

Didn't hi-jack the thread either, merely commenting on one member's recommendation to upgrade brakes with a power increase. If anyone HJ'd it, it was you, you added little to either discussion despite your SHOUTING.

Go on and add Big brakes if that's your thing... your money, your car. And Bling Factor and Bragging Rights are very important to some people and they're willing to ante up for the priviledge.

But trying to justify it on the basis of a power increase just doesn't wash.

Cheers!

[TTyMiller]

Good stuff guys, I have a pair of 40s TIPO 18 the same TIPO that was used on the Alpina race cars. I hope to get them in this spring; but I said that last year. Anyway thanks for the info from both sides of the isle.

[TobyB]

you guys are all geniussess.

but I am smarter.

A pair of 40dcoe's with 28mm chokes are fantastic for a street car.

A pair of 50dcoe's with 42mm chokes will be a fiasco.

A pair of SU's will be interesting- it's been done.

They're sidedrafts, you know.

A 38/38 is really far too much carb for a stock motor-

it's far more than 40's with 32mm chokes. And yet it works quite well.

2 32/36's would be wierd. I bet it's been done, too.

well, you said dual carburettors...

t

Go figure.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well some say you will not really benefit fully by slapping them on a stock engine. Here is the theory. Dual carbs give you more air and fuel when you need it. The M10 doesnt need more at low RPM's, at least not more than a single carb can deliver. So the REAL advantages come at the top end of the RPM curve. A stock engine just doesnt run high enough in the RPM range to take full advantage of the extra fuel and air. So for most people the 32/36 or the 38/38 is a better option for a relatively stock engine. If you plan on adding exhaust, cam, high compression pistons and a hot ignition setup, then dual carbs will really work well in that setup giving you in the ballpark of 150 hp...on a bone stock engine, you may see some advantages, but it depends on whats in there now AND how its tuned. I am sure ALOT of people take a poorly running car into a shop, get dual carbs put on, as well as doing timing, replacing plugs, oil etc and updating the ignition then say WOW this dual carb setup is so much nicer than stock, when in reality, its all the other things that made the huge difference. That being said, they come up for sale every now and then, or you can get a new system with intake manifold and linkage from TEP or Ireland. New expect about $1100 for the setup. This does not include the water bypass pipe which is needed to bypass the water from going to the intake manifold. It does not include a fuel pump which may need to be replaced if yours isnt up to pushing more fuel, the Bavaria pump works well if you want mechanical or you can get an electric pump as well. This also does not include the upgraded ignition which should be upgraded to handle the extra fuel and air and make hotter spark.

There is nothing on the M10 that could not benefit from one form or upgrade or another. Books and forums have been devoted to the subject. Yet you attempted to sum it up in one big paragraph while it might have been better to suggest the poster start perusing the Forum discussions on this subject. Your effort was definitely in the right place, but by squeezing too much information into your dissertation, some of the advice is bad.

You answered a question that was not asked. The poster did not specify what his objectives were, let alone they type of carburetors he was considering. Maybe, he saw a VW Beetle running twin Dellorto DOWNdrafts or even twin single barrel Solexs and THAT was what he wanted to emulate.

Unless you have personal knowledge about adapting various fuel delivery systems to an M10 engine, your opinion is lacking in foundation. I have built several M10 and M30 engines using a rolling dynamometer and can state that smaller choked sidedrafts can be configured on an M10 to optimize low end torque, horsepower, and throttle response - if that is the builder's objective.

You mention a Bavaria fuel pump and an upgraded ignition "to handle the extra fuel and air and make hotter spark." Do you realize that the multi carbureted "ti" did perfectly well with the same fuel pump fitted to the single barrel carbureted engines? Are you also aware that the same black coil was also fitted to the stock 2002, the ti, the tii and the Bavaria? So, somehow, the ignition that feeds the tii and the Bavaria is incapable of firing a twin carbureted M10 engine? Seriously, you need to educate yourself regarding the mythology of "hot sparks." A "bigger" "badder" coil does not necessarily equal superior combustion.

[morfiya]

wow lots of good info

[AceAndrew]

Also, I think in a discussion, it's inappropriate to to inject derogatory descriptions such as 'old fart' into the mix. Shows a lack of respect for your fellow members.

Didn't hi-jack the thread either, merely commenting on one member's recommendation to upgrade brakes with a power increase. If anyone HJ'd it, it was you, you added little to either discussion despite your SHOUTING.

I simply failed to see where any poster before you mentioned brakes, and I'm glad we both understand that either point can be argued with no real conclusion.

Enunciating a few words does not constitute internet 'shouting', I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Instead of 'old fart' I'll stick with grandpappy from now on, it's humorous and a bit more respectful of the elders among us.

jrhone did a good job explaining some benefits/drawbacks of DCOE's in layman's terms. It was a good intro. but after words what we have is a big pile of bruised ego's and tidbits of unsubstantial information.

[MarkDavis]

Elvis2002

Here is a list of the things you will need.

1. Carbs (weber, Mikuni, Dolorto) there are a number to chose from.

2. Intake manifolds there are also a number to choose from.

3. By pass tub off of a 320 or a 2002ti or tii

4. Front water jacket off of a 320 or a 2002ti or tii

5. You will have to sort out some linkage.

6. Some sort of air cleaner that works with the stock 2002 brake booster.

7. You may want to run a choke cable for the manual chokes.

I would suggest that you fully tune your car so that any issue you come across after the install is carb related. This does not always work. Your next challenge will be to tune and jet the carbs correctly.

This is a lot of work but in my opinion it is worth it. There are those that would say all the 2002 needs is the stock carburetor and that is why they do not modify their cars. Those of us that do modify our cars do so to our own tastes. Upgrade and enjoy.

Mark

[andrey]

I firmly stand behind the view that the best carburetor setup will work nowhere near as well as the crappiest electric or electronic fuel injection. Ascetics and "cool intake sound" aside, I'd keep that in mind when choosing what to spend your money on.

The Bavaria fuel pump is useful if you're putting on even bigger carbs (I've seen them used on cars with dual 45mm DCOEs) but as someone mentioned the stock pump is perfectly fine for the stock-size dual 40mm Weber or Solex side drafts.

I had triple DCOE 40's on my 3.0S and it sounded and looked cool but ultimately sucked a lot. I changed over to fuel injection and wondered why I ever wasted time and money messing with those stupid things on my daily driver.

[Emyers]

Mark,

I knew there were other Mikuni users out there...my setup 44 PHH.

Earl

aka Snakedriver

74 02Lux

02 M Roadster

72 Volvo 1800ES

[jgerock]

Mark,

I knew there were other Mikuni users out there...my setup 44 PHH.

Earl

aka Snakedriver

74 02Lux

02 M Roadster

72 Volvo 1800ES

Earl - I would be interested in taking a ride in your car a the Vintage if possible.

This subject has been discussed many times. You must be able to tune them correctly and have a good working linkage before saying "they won't work on your car". Fuel injection is the way to go if you can afford to spend the time and money to set it up correctly.

62mm Webers for VW

[Emyers]

Jim,

No sweat.....

Earl

[jgerock]

Jim,

No sweat.....

Earl

Thanks Earl!