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Time for a Pro? or do I go?

Dudeland

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Ok so I am having a problem.  I can set up the car just fine, part throttle, full throttle, cruise is just fine.  When I come off the throttle,  the revs will drop, and either catch at about 800 rpm stumbles or almost stalls to 100 RPM then recovers. 

 

When I take my foot off the gas, it pins full lean, even if I force the system to still pump fuel. So it is one of two things

 

1) My spark control is bad or something with the ignition that I can't figure out.  Everything has been gone through, there is one thing I need to check with Holley tech support.  I have an adapter to run the tach.  I am not sure if it should be on the MSD now that the Sniper is in or run off the "Tach out" on the Holley. From all that I can read, it doesn't matter.  Losing spark on the way down would cause a false lean. 

 

If anyone knows if something that will fool the Holley, please let me know.  The Holley can control the timing but I would have to heavily modify a Holley dual-sync dizzy to fit   It needs a 12V square wave output, not sure If I can get there with a trigger wheel.  I am looking at the megajolt software tonight.  

 

2) The other thing is it is registering a false lean for another unknown reason, be it a combination of head, header, intake etc... that will require an engineer to diagnose, and expertise far beyond mine. New intake gaskets, header,and a new O2 sensor after the Holley one broke (will get replaced under warranty), cap rotor, plugs just to make sure that it isn't something simple, has been done. Voltages look fine, worked with my NA setup. 

 

The problem, as far as I can tell, is that the false lean, causes the EFI to dump fuel, then it dumps too much, on the way down to idle.,  floods it and causes it to stall and stumble.  Can this be tuned out? I am not sure.  

 

Maybe I am reading this all wrong, but it is the only thing that makes sense based on the fuel flow and the data and what I can cobble together.  Any other theories are welcome.  

 

It does idle nice, if I am out of closed loop, it is just every time I come to a stop, the stalling is just too annoying to overlook. 

 

 

Below is the data. 

 

On the left side, I forced open loop so the Closed loop comp stops trying to fix this.   On the right, I have closed loop, and you can see the idle peak then drop.  The red is RPM.  

 

image.thumb.png.aa6c79d8b436ecda75847545b009d89b.png

 

 

Below you can see how CL comp chases the spike lean in the AFR. 

 

image.thumb.png.69aaec33cecf23d5a3b8e1362f2542ac.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sniper Log hunting idle.dl

BMW2002 v 14 Reboot.sniper.info.txt



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I dunno if you have special parameters to set for idle like alpha n...

 

... your charts show timing at 12 degrees. Are you sure that's before tdc? I would think it should show -12...

 

That's all I got...

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Thanks Ray for all your support and encouragement.  I think that I can use this and modify it to fit the car,  It is a crank trigger wheel that will plug into the Holley and let it control the Holley control the timing. 

 

The system will plot timing, without having to control your timing.  Kinda weird, so I put in 12 degrees for baseline timing at idle, but it should be completely ignored.  The 123 is controlling timing curve as well as vac advance.  The Holley does not see or control the advance curve just the output from the 123. 

 

I would get the wheel coming up if I thought it would fix the issue.  I kinda want to confirm a couple of things with tech support before I make that decision. It is just a 12V hall sender. I would think that I could get something that would work off the 123 and just lock it out.  Maybe my first dollar is my best dollar..... Just don't know.  

 

 

 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/msd-8655

 

msd-8655_xl.thumb.jpg.b9021e23ed2b4f8c9c98d0f0821c2c6b.jpg

Edited by Dudeland

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Your 123 was working before the Holly install, right? I would not recommend throwing another system full of new variables in to the loop right now until we understand and hopefully solve the issues with what you have first. I'm generally in favor of doing the crack triggered route, I just think we should get things dialed in first as I'm not yet convinced timing is really your problem. Let me review the logs and such and get back to you later today.

Edited by AustrianVespaGuy

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4 hours ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

Your 123 was working before the Holly install, right? I would not recommend throwing another system full of new variables in to the loop right now until we understand and hopefully solve the issues with what you have first. I'm generally in favor of doing the crack triggered route, I just think we should get things dialed in first as I'm not yet convinced timing is really your problem. Let me review the logs and such and get back to you later today.

Thanks much,  I would really appreciate it.  And I am thinking the same thing, I don't want to add any more variables unless it will help the problem.   

 

To answer your question, yes it was working fine, I have talked to some local dyno owners and the problem may be that rpm is getting out of sync with the EFI.  The crank trigger would solve that because the method of sync is much more rigid. 

Edited by Dudeland

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Ok, looked over the datalogs and my theory is that this issue is basically due to the Sniper injector(s) being too big for your M10.  When you're in open loop and have it idling OK you're running way, way down at ~1.6ms pulse widths and 1.5% duty cycle.  I don't know the resolution of Sniper's injectors or controllers, but my guess is that when you try to go closed loop the 'smallest' correction that it can make a relatively HUGE difference in fuel for your engine, e.g. 0.2ms is a 13% change in fueling amount.

Here's some good general reading from the Megasquirt side on this stuff if you're interested:

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm#idlepw

 

But the good news is, that if you can figure out how to keep it in open loop (at least at idle), seems like that will still work alright! Consider doing a good bit of driving around and datalogging so that you can get to the point where things are 'pretty good' in all driving conditions, and then just lock everything down and leave it all in open loop, and then you can still go back and manually tweak specific areas as needed.  Closed loop really isn't all it's cracked up to be; once warmed up, the inside of your engine doesn't change much.  The right amount of fuel for 75% throttle at 2850 RPM will be the same next year as it is today.  Then there's problems like a malfunctioning O2 sensor that can then make a good running engine into a poor one very quickly and leave you wondering what the hell happened.  On my Megasquirt cars I leave O2 feedback correction limited to 1-2%, mainly so that I can see in the datalogs when it "thinks" it needs to adjust fueling, 

 

One other idea, what fuel pressure are you running at? If you can dial down the fuel pressure some, it would obviously help this situation, as you would then require *longer* injector open times to flow the same about of fuel.

 

A final observation, can you confirm what your 123 advance curve look like right now?  What I'm seeing in the log looks awfully aggressive, with jumping up what I'm guessing is full advance of 36 deg. by about 1500 RPM.  While I don't think is is really the cause of your issues, if it's really that abrupt it's probably not right nor that helpful here either. . .

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8 hours ago, Dudeland said:

To answer your question, yes it was working fine, I have talked to some local dyno owners and the problem may be that rpm is getting out of sync with the EFI.  The crank trigger would solve that because the method of sync is much more rigid. 

So on this topic: yes and no - let me explain ;)

 

A crank trigger would indeed be make the timing signal much more accurate, which would indeed be just what you want to have if Sniper is controlling the spark timing for the ignition.

 

However, it would NOT make the RPM signal any better.  You can see from the datalog you have a nice clean and accurate RPM signal, and 100 ignition events per second is still 3000 RPM, regardless of whether those 100 ignition events happen at TDC or 50 degrees BTDC.  (100events * 2revs/event * 60s/min / 4 plugs = 3000 revs/min). We're not talking direct injection here, so the timing of the injectors squirting fuel into the manifold is essentially irrelevant; it's only frequency of the injections and amount of fuel that are important.  Timing isn't even that important for port injection engines for that matter; as cool as sequential injection sounds, it's mostly about economy and emissions, as at peak torque/power RPMs the injectors generally need to be squirting longer than the length of time the valve is even open, see here: https://www.diyautotune.com/support/faq/megasquirt-tech/sequential/

 

So what I'm saying is: don't think the trigger wheel will help you at all with fueling, because it won't.  But still do it for ignition control, whenever you decide you want to tackle that, because that's where it WILL make a difference.

 

I hope this is helpful stuff for you; I realize sometimes my explanations can get a little long winded, but I really do think all your problems are solvable but I want to make sure you try to keep things simple so you don't get sidetracked chasing the wrong ghosts!

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When you say "off throttle" do you mean completely off throttle?

 

If so, it's possible you're actually too rich or you have an ignition problem.  If you're dumping fuel in and it doesn't ignite, then it's not consuming the oxygen, so you can show lean no matter how much fuel you're putting in.

 

Usually it's normal to not use fuel on decel for emissions/mpg purposes (unless you have a turbo, but that's another story)

 

If you stomp on it, accelerate, and then let off, and throw in the clutch, does it stumble and stall, or settle back to idle (clutch still pressed in)

 

Are you injecting fuel on decel, and if so, why?

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19 hours ago, xr4tic said:

When you say "off throttle" do you mean completely off throttle?

 

If so, it's possible you're actually too rich or you have an ignition problem.  If you're dumping fuel in and it doesn't ignite, then it's not consuming the oxygen, so you can show lean no matter how much fuel you're putting in.

 

Usually it's normal to not use fuel on decel for emissions/mpg purposes (unless you have a turbo, but that's another story)

 

If you stomp on it, accelerate, and then let off, and throw in the clutch, does it stumble and stall, or settle back to idle (clutch still pressed in)

 

Are you injecting fuel on decel, and if so, why?

Yes by off throttle, I mean completely off the throttle (0% TPS positon).  I talked to Holley Tech support and confirmed that it is likely a false lean.   I have now completely shut off fuel on decel until 200 RPM above idle.  Fuel stops immediately after the throttle goes to 0%.  I may change that later, but I will deal it up now. 

 

To answer your second question it doesn't stumble or stall when I stomp on it and put my clutch in.   I can control the coast to idle, it doesn't make any difference in terms of the overrun at when it tries to idle.   

 

 

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On 12/31/2018 at 5:54 PM, AustrianVespaGuy said:

You can see from the datalog you have a nice clean and accurate RPM signal, and 100 ignition events per second is still 3000 RPM, regardless of whether those 100 ignition events happen at TDC or 50 degrees BTDC.  (100events * 2revs/event * 60s/min / 4 plugs = 3000 revs/min).

 

2

Thanks for taking a look,  I didn't know if that was a clean signal.   Your comment mirrors exactly what the Holley Tech said.  The crank trigger will make things more accurate, but it won't solve the issue. 

Edited by Dudeland

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On 12/31/2018 at 8:56 AM, AustrianVespaGuy said:

Ok, looked over the datalogs and my theory is that this issue is basically due to the Sniper injector(s) being too big for your M10.  When you're in open loop and have it idling OK you're running way, way down at ~1.6ms pulse widths and 1.5% duty cycle.  I don't know the resolution of Sniper's injectors or controllers, but my guess is that when you try to go closed loop the 'smallest' correction that it can make a relatively HUGE difference in fuel for your engine, e.g. 0.2ms is a 13% change in fueling amount.

Here's some good general reading from the Megasquirt side on this stuff if you're interested:

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm#idlepw

 

But the good news is, that if you can figure out how to keep it in open loop (at least at idle), seems like that will still work alright! Consider doing a good bit of driving around and datalogging so that you can get to the point where things are 'pretty good' in all driving conditions, and then just lock everything down and leave it all in open loop, and then you can still go back and manually tweak specific areas as needed.  Closed loop really isn't all it's cracked up to be; once warmed up, the inside of your engine doesn't change much.  The right amount of fuel for 75% throttle at 2850 RPM will be the same next year as it is today.  Then there's problems like a malfunctioning O2 sensor that can then make a good running engine into a poor one very quickly and leave you wondering what the hell happened.  On my Megasquirt cars I leave O2 feedback correction limited to 1-2%, mainly so that I can see in the datalogs when it "thinks" it needs to adjust fueling, 

 

One other idea, what fuel pressure are you running at? If you can dial down the fuel pressure some, it would obviously help this situation, as you would then require *longer* injector open times to flow the same about of fuel.

 

A final observation, can you confirm what your 123 advance curve look like right now?  What I'm seeing in the log looks awfully aggressive, with jumping up what I'm guessing is full advance of 36 deg. by about 1500 RPM.  While I don't think is is really the cause of your issues, if it's really that abrupt it's probably not right nor that helpful here either. . .

8

 

Like you, I was looking at duty cycle on the injectors. The Mil sec on average hangs around 1.6-2.0 Ms pulse width.  The Holley can go down to 1.2 Msec, but it doesn't seem to want to go there.   After changing the decel fuel, and taking it for a short run it seems like fuel flow overall is getting correcting downwards.  In addition, the overrun seems to be less.  This is only after 1/2 an hour of driving. 

 

I also have the learn gain turned down to 20%, which means it takes longer to confirm a change in the fueling table.  This may result in a more refined table, and not react to the overrun or other fueling anomalies.

 

The 123 advance I have played with and put in various vac advance curves to see if it changed anything... It didn't.    The advance data that you see in the Holley log is false.  Holley simply puts it in there and cross-references it with the RPM table, but the Holley doesn't see any advance curve. 

 

My fuel pressure is at 62-64, which is ok for the Holley.  I will take the fuel pressure sensor on the return to see what the back pressure is on the return line.   I know that it is going into the evap return on the gas tank, and I suspect that back pressure is approaching the acceptable limit of 5LBS. Also, this can aerate the fuel and be harmful to pumps as you probably know, so this is not long term.  I just need to get it to my fab guy to install the -6 return fitting I have.   

 

I have attached the 123 advance curve I am running now.  If you can I please send me yours and I will try it out.  My plan is to copy one from the forum, I will have to dig it up, but they are all very similar. 

 

I can keep it in open loop based on temp, fuel, TPS, RPM and a couple others.  I am currently using RPM and keeping it at about 1050 RPM.   I am going to let it learn and see where the tune is headed, I can live with the rest, but the stumbling and stalling when coming down to idle is going to be the deal killer. 

 

Thanks again for your help.  I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to help me, it is more humbling than you may think.    

 

Kindest Regards

 

 

 

 

First build.123

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9 hours ago, Dudeland said:

I can keep it in open loop based on temp, fuel, TPS, RPM and a couple others.  I am currently using RPM and keeping it at about 1050 RPM.   I am going to let it learn and see where the tune is headed, I can live with the rest, but the stumbling and stalling when coming down to idle is going to be the deal killer. 

Does it still stumble/stall even when you have it switch to open loop at >1000 RPM? If so I would say the next experiment should be to go to open loop at low (<5% maybe) TPS instead, meaning it would kick in sooner, as soon as you close the throttle, and see if that is at all different or still the same.

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I actually have open loop in two different parts of the cycle

 

1) Open loop above 1050 RPM. 

 

2)  "Fuel Control" active.  This means Open loop any time the throttle is closed and fuel is automatically cut off anything above a selected RPM, mine is Idle +100 so about 1050 RPM   

 

So the idea is that when it goes false lean like when I take my foot off the gas and close the throttle, it cuts all fuel so it doesn't collect in the motor, then turns on the fuel at a certain RPM or when I open the throttle again.

 

You can select how quickly it cuts the fuel.  I have it set at 0 seconds now, I may put in 1-2 seconds, as it got a little choppy when I am on and off the throttle driving at lower RPMs today. 

 

I can further modify the TPS setting so it needs anything above 5% to go open loop, so anything below it goes open. This would kinda give the fuel control a head start.  I will give it a try and post the result. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

Does it still stumble/stall even when you have it switch to open loop at >1000 RPM? If so I would say the next experiment should be to go to open loop at low (<5% maybe) TPS instead, meaning it would kick in sooner, as soon as you close the throttle, and see if that is at all different or still the same.

No, once it is idling it is fine.   And coming off idle is fine, sweet as a plum actually.  It is just coming off the throttle to the idle is the problem.   I will try to video it next time I am out. 

 

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Ok so I did some noodling last night.   I figured out that the "fuel Control" was overridden by the idle circuit kicking in.  The IAC control was set to 800 rpm above idle, so when I took my foot off the gas, it would kill the fuel flow until about 1600 RPM,  then it would re-initiate the fuel and try to idle down.  

 

So I thought that the same problem of false lean would still be a problem even at 1750 RPM.  Essentially in the false lean condition, it dumps fuel into the intake, presumably causing it to stumble at idle. So I decided to change when the IAC circuit kicks in.  Now I have it set at 0 RPM above idle, and it seems to have things headed in the right direction.   It still rev's up and wanders around a bit before it settles down, but I think that is just because I have the IAC hold level at 20% once it hits idle.  I think if i knock that down to like 5%, and set the decay time (the amount of time it holds the IAC at 5% down from 5 seconds to 1-2, it may put it in the right ballpark. 

 

I also changed the closed loop to only engage above 10% TPS, not sure if that is set correctly, but I will try it out. 

 

I ran out of time today to play with the tune.   I changed the transmission oil,  It was changed when I got the car, so a little flush and fill won't go wrong.   I use Prolong transmission additive, I have never been disappointed with it, regardless of the car I use it in.  It is hard to get in Canada, as the U.S website will only sell to people with U.S credit cards (no paypal).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dudeland
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Ok so the only solution that worked regarding the idle is running an AFR of 12.5, and blocking off the IAC port.  It was like this when I had a carb, it wouldn't idle unless it was super rich. 

 

The question is why? I have great oil pressure.  Is the compression low?

 

 

 

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IMO 12.5 is what the M10 likes at idle. How's driveability and overall throttle response now?

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Hey all, sorry for not getting back to everyone. I am a Data Science Bootcamp that eats 110% of my time.   I did take some study breaks and did a little bit of fiddling. 

 

1) Took the tape of the IAC

2) Adjusted the throttle plate

3) Loaded in a good tune, but where the overshoot on idle was still happening

4) added about 15% more fuel across the board

5) Tweaked some startup settings to get it to fire faster.  I am doing this slowly because it is easy to flood the engine, but progress is good. 

6) Clamped down on CL and learning.  I clamped down on learning, everywhere is 5% and the "learning rate" is at 20 percent.  This means that it takes longer for the car to tune, but is more accurate statistically due to more data points.

7) CL comp at idle is enabled, I set it to 2%, and the rest at 5.  I will drive it for a while to see what the data looks like, but many people have this setup as they approach the final tune.  I may open everything but idle to 10% just to see where it goes when cruising, but it is good for now. 

 

So what does all that add up to?

1) WAY WAY WAY better idle.  No overshoot on deceleration.  There is a little bit of surging when the car is warming up, but I am leaving that as it can be fixed by a bit more fuel and continued tweaking of the start settings.

2) IAC is doing what it should above idle..  I don't have it at the 2-10% setting; It is close to 0 to -2 right now.   I will continue to bring it up, but right now it does what it is supposed to do, and doesn't mess with the car when it is idling. 

3) Noticing a little bit of noise from the TPS.  Sometimes at 1% when I take my foot fully off the gas.  The linkage hasn't changed, so I will have to take a look at that, also at full throttle, TPS shows 105%, none of these changes driveability at all. 

4) The condensation inside the cap has been eliminated by some strategically placed 1/4 in holes. 

5) The tri-y is working well, no leaks, and a nice decidedly non-resonator enabled rumble.

 

I am starting to think that this shows some sign of success.  I will be driving it with minor tweaks over the next couple of weeks, to see if the new tune will hold, and nothing starts to get carboned up et al.  I may close the throttle plate and see if the IAC can work at idle without causing any strange anomalies, but if it does, I can just open it up and set it manually.  

 

So right now it is working better than my carb did.  I am getting more power and better throttle response.  Considering I haven't paid any attention to that, I am pleasantly surprised by how it is shaping up. 

 

Now not being able to leave well enough alone.  I am interested to have the Sniper EFI control the timing.   There are some advantages

 

1) Better resolution than the 123 regarding curve

2) Computer controlled idling.  The sniper will control the spark to get the smoothest idle.  

3) I think that it controls the spark under throttle to help reach the target afr, but I need to double check this. 

 

Ok... now time for the gizmo.   From what I can tell the sniper looks for a 12V square wave signal from their crank triggers or dedicated dizzy.  I can (and probably will) do a crank trigger, but before I do that, I wanted to see if I can make it work with my 123.   

 

Now, this is not the 60-1 or the 32?-1 trigger wheels.  It is just a straight magnetic trigger and sensor.  So there is no increase in resolution with the trigger, but you do get more accurate timing because it is affected by slop in the chain and gears that a normal dizzy has. 

 

I am going to try to take the signal output on a 123 and change it into a 12V square wave signal.  The box has a filter, to help with a dirty "points" driven signal.  Since the 123 is electronic, I don't expect that there will be much noise.  

 

The point of this is to give those who don't have a 123 the ability to program a timing curve, just by locking out a dizzy and getting a $49 tach adapter.   Of course, you would want that dizzy to be in good shape mechanically in regards to bearings and gear end play et al. Having a dizzy in good shape is already a good practice for these sort of cars, so you really can't count this as an expense. 

 

Also, it makes an $1100 EFI system, less pricy considering you are getting arguably equal or better benefits than a $435 123 dizzy.   All of this will retain the stock dizzy, so the looks aren't compromised.

 

 

As always if you have any questions, please let me know. 

 

 

 

s-l1600.thumb.png.99be197ce9c68ab75704019184d11709.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dudeland
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Oh yes I forgot to mention the other benefit of sniper controlled timing. Launch control and NOS.  YEAH !!!!.  I will be able to say things like... "I smoked this guy... put it up on the two step... let go and never saw him again" ala Street Outlaws.  

 

Not the same as an automatic double clutch setup, but still fun to have it pop and snap at a light. 

 

 

 

FREAKING LAUNCH CONTROL!!!!!!!

 

 

And the counterpoint

 

 

Edited by Dudeland

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As I said in the general discussion post, the injectors are a ways away from the cylinder.  When it goes into decel fuel cut off, he entire intake system goes dry.  When it's time to resume fueling, there isn't much air flow with the throttle closed.  The 200rpm above desired idle rpm doesn't give enough time for some fuel to make it to the cylinders.  Increase the rpm to resume fuel by about 400-500 rpm and the idle should not droop.

I don't know if there is a delay in the O2 feedback, but if none the correction on fuel resume doesn't know what to do.  My system adds extra fuel on resume fueling to avoid the problem.  The wideband reading is also ignored while enrichments are in effect to stop the overcorrection.

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4 hours ago, jimk said:

As I said in the general discussion post, the injectors are a ways away from the cylinder.  When it goes into decel fuel cut off, he entire intake system goes dry.  When it's time to resume fueling, there isn't much air flow with the throttle closed.  The 200rpm above desired idle rpm doesn't give enough time for some fuel to make it to the cylinders.  Increase the rpm to resume fuel by about 400-500 rpm and the idle should not droop.

I don't know if there is a delay in the O2 feedback, but if none the correction on fuel resume doesn't know what to do.  My system adds extra fuel on resume fueling to avoid the problem.  The wideband reading is also ignored while enrichments are in effect to stop the overcorrection.

Yes. I have shut off the decel fuel shutoff.  I found out that it wasn't showing a "false lean" but a real lean condition as soon as I took my foot off the pedal.  This is why it was overshooting the idle, not because it had too much fuel, but rather it didn't have enough

 

Since then I added at least 15% more fuel and the idle is now manageable. 

 

The IAC cuts in about 1800 RPM, and lets it glide down nicely to around idle. about 950.  I have things set now, am going to check the learn on the weekend and see what it is trying to do.  I want to open up the learning further away from idle conditions.   Also, I am going to restrict learning until it hits about 140 degrees.  That way it isn't learning when it is cold and the fuel being skewed by IAT, CT and other factors. 

 

 

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Just a quick update.  I am now on my 3rd 02 sensor.  The "OEM BOSCH" sensor that I got off eBay.... when compared to one I got from a local reputable parts supplier is of course completely different.    I am now getting good feedback, and it is working smoothly.  It was jumping all over the place, now not so much.   My target vs actual AFR is quite close. 

 

 I would post a summary blog at this point, but I want to see how it works with a properly working 02 sensor. 

 

I did take it for a nice rip down to Blane WA to pick up the fire extinguisher I got from benh.  I gotta say the 5th gear is really nice on the highway.  I only wish I did it with a new 02 sensor. 

 

All I can say is that the fuel injection works a charm, and the mileage is pretty amazing compared to a carb.  I was cruising at 80 MPH with an 11-14% TPS.  The 40mm throttle bores on the system are more than enough for the 2L that is for sure. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Lol, trailblazing is not as romantic as it sounds.  But it is definitely getting dialled.   Can't wait to post the "good" tune that everyone can start to use. 

 

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Getting caught up on a bunch of posts now, I’m also running the 123 - think the 02 sensor swap resolved everything?

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