engine and drivetrain Tii Kugelfischer or Megasquirt or 318i L-jet!? M10 or M20!? I think I'm going mad.

[Rooncicle]

This is a really long post, so I appreciate any feedback I get from those brave enough to sift through my ramblings.

 

My (tii) story:

1. in a moment of foolishness, I screwed up the timing & couldn't get my tii running
2. thinking something more sinister was going on and at my wits end, I took it to a mechanic I know and trust
3. one of his guys got it running but he said it would get progressively more lean over ~20 minutes and start to sputter/stall
4. he said it was likely something wrong (as in failing, not out of sync) with the pump or injectors, but I wasn't sold. I've read enough threads to know the first step is always to download the manual and follow the tuning procedure step-by-step before blaming the injection pump.
5. tow the car home, run through the WUR and tuna can procedures - sadly, I'm not able to do the linkages quite yet, though I know they need my attention - and get it running. Idle is fairly smooth, doesn't lean out or seem to be running rich, take it on a drive around the neighborhood and don't encounter any problems.
6. fresh oil and timing today, along with testing the CSV

 

So... long story long, here's where the madness comes in.

 

While waiting to get my car back & before I had a chance to run through the manual, I was researching potential fuel injection options:
 

1. rebuild the pump & injectors through Wes Ingram's shop. I hesitate since this car isn't going to be a show car or something I plan on selling, so keeping it original isn't necessarily the most important thing to me. (The PO already did some of the common mods - Pertronix, LSD, 5-speed, Recaros.) The rebuild price tag is intimidating, and I wonder what other upgrades/fixes I could do with the money.
2. Megasquirt/EFI conversion using the various conversion blogs as a reference. The local pick-n-pulls have a number of 318/325's, so parts could be cheap if I hunt around. Megasquirt's tuning & customizability capabilities feel like overkill when I consider what my goal is: a reliable, pleasant daily driver (my work is ~6 miles away, so this should be a realistic pursuit).
3. Swap in a 318i L-jet system. Lacking in control & customizability and I've seen quite a few debates over the value of this conversion, but it should be fairly easy and reliable, right? While electronics have their shortcomings, diagnosing and repairing problems seem easier.
4. M20 swap (or maybe something else, like an S14/M42/??) Not going for a drag racer by any means, but a modest bump in power without sacrificing too much of the legendary 02 handling might be fun. I've got a friend who knows M20s, so with his help this build could be fun and achievable.

If I was to opt not to rebuild the pump, I would still keep all the MFI components and avoid any mods that would prevent re-installing the K-fish system in the future. (Thinking about it now, that probably rules out an engine swap.) Maybe this is just wishful thinking.

 

I reckon this post will be responded to with mostly "fix the pump, keep it original" and the occasional "sell the tti and buy a base 02 to mod" response, which I totally see the value in, but maybe there are some other opinions out there that could spice up the discussion. Regardless, I'm interested in hearing everyone's take. Maybe even some of you experienced the same dilemma.

 

Side notes:

I have a spare K-fish with injectors, which I would send in for the rebuild. Would it be wise to keep the non-rebuilt pump as a backup, or can I count on getting another 100k of the rebuild and be better off selling the old one for cash to put towards other upgrades/improvements?

 

I also have a spare M10 head and block. I've entertained the idea of having them rebuilt and swapped in. The compression and vacuum were good on the current engine when I checked a few months ago. Assuming they are still good, is there a notable benefit in swapping in the rebuilt engine? I guess one advantage would be new gaskets throughout.

[AceAndrew]

Nobody here can answer your question for you.  We may have personal opinions but we are not in your shoes.

My best advise is to go grab a beer/coffee and sit down with a pad of paper.  Think of what you want out of the car (and be honest with yourself [meaning prioritize your values and what you want out of the car]).  Literally visualize yourself in the car completely finished.  Decisions like what you are trying to make are much easier if you already have an end vision in your head.

My second advice is to meet up with local guys and try to get rides in a variety of 2002's.  You will find most guys are more than willing to take you for a ride if you ask.

Given your options, the only one that raises a red flag is option 3.

[TobyB]

Turbo.  

 

EFI.

 

Subaru Boxer engine with big turbo.

 

JATO rocket on the roof.

 

Whatever appeals- it's your car.  Andrew said it best.

 

 If I had a tii, I'd leave it tii, simply because if a 2002 is going to be a 'classic', it'll be the tii.

Since I don't, I'm thinking 4BT...

 

t

[bluedevils]

As a first course of action, I would send KF pump and injectors (and of course the warm up regulator) to a reputable builder (like Wes Ingram), depending on  budget. If this is too expensive up front, the most logical and simple/alternative solution would be to convert to a 318i L-Jetronic (analog) injection. It is not much adjustable but it was designed for M10 engine by BMW engineers and works surprisingly well with a tii engine. Very similar performance to MFI. Make sure 318i injectors are clean and that ICV and its computer are in good condition. ECU doesn't go bad (but watch out for corrosion) and AFM usually works if the flapper wasn't warped. Make sure wiring harness is not dried out especially the injector looms. System can be fine tuned using the adjustment screw on the AFM. You can use the original tii fuel pump, fuel filter, ignition system (distributor) etc as well. In the meantime, you can save $$$ for KF rebuilt. When KF is done, you can easily put everything back together.  I don't know much about Mega and other stuff but I know 318i EFi works. You can get it running in a couple of days max. I have done exactly the same thing. I was trying to convert to a Volvo 2.3 EFI Jetronic (digital) but ended up going with a 318i jetronic system.  AS a rule of thumb, get the last year's system (1985) as the wiring and other things seem to be of better quality, but 83-84 will work too. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by bluedevils

[Simeon]

How about another option? How long can you stand the car off the road? Some of those options may take a while to piece together. How about a downdraft manifold and 32/36 while you make up your mind / collect components?

[adawil2002]

I'm in the number 1 group, fix it and keep it the way the engineers designed it.

[Grover]

I'd suggest that a logical first step is to get a firm understanding of the issue you are having right now. Is it really the K-fish, or something else? Wouldn't it suck to put a bunch of money into rebuilding the pump, only to realize that was not the problem?

 

Assuming you've done the above, Andrew gives some good advice. One thing I can't help but pick up on in your initial post though is about feeling the cost of rebuilding the K-fish is intimidating. If I recall correctly, this is something in the range of $800 (please correct me if I'm way off base here.) While that's not chump change, it is absolutely dwarfed by what you would spend on an M20 or S14 swap, not to mention that your car would "likely" have lesser resale value than if you left it as a tii, at least with the M20 route or a hopped up carb'd M10. Almost everybody on this board (including myself) says "I have no intention of selling my car" but the reality is that the vast majority of us do at some point; I'm getting ready to do that myself. In other words, don't let resale make your decision for you, but at least be conscious of the impact your decisions now will make on a future resale, especially on something like a tii.

 

Lastly, and again back to price, having done an MS install myself, I'd say your cost isn't going to be less than rebuilding the stock unit. Yes, some will tell you that you can spend all your weekends and evenings trolling Pick 'n Pull and do it for less, but really, is that how you want to spend all your time? Once you buy the ECU, swap parts, wiring, 02 sensor, etc, you WILL be in over $800, I can almost guarantee it. And THEN you need to start doing the install and tuning. Don't underestimate the cost or time it takes to do a nice MS install. I can't speak for the Bosch system as I've not touched it personally.

 

But whatever you do. Enjoy the process. Learn. Then gloat and post pictures of your successes like the rest of us.

[Rooncicle]

Nobody here can answer your question for you.  We may have personal opinions but we are not in your shoes.

My best advise is to go grab a beer/coffee and sit down with a pad of paper.  Think of what you want out of the car (and be honest with yourself [meaning prioritize your values and what you want out of the car]).  Literally visualize yourself in the car completely finished.  Decisions like what you are trying to make are much easier if you already have an end vision in your head.

My second advice is to meet up with local guys and try to get rides in a variety of 2002's.  You will find most guys are more than willing to take you for a ride if you ask.

Given your options, the only one that raises a red flag is option 3.

 

You're totally right - I've got be honest about what I really want and go with it. So tough! So many options, so much potential. The good news is that I love my car, it brings a smile to my face even when it's not behaving, so I'm sure I'll be happy no matter what I do.

 

 

JATO rocket on the roof.

 

 Well, I think that's all the input I need! Toby, you've inspired me. I'll be looking like Wiley Coyote in no time.

 

As a first course of action, I would send KF pump and injectors (and of course the warm up regulator) to a reputable builder (like Wes Ingram), depending on  budget. If this is too expensive up front, the most logical and simple/alternative solution would be to convert to a 318i L-Jetronic (analog) injection. It is not much adjustable but it was designed for M10 engine by BMW engineers and works surprisingly well with a tii engine. Very similar performance to MFI. Make sure 318i injectors are clean and that ICV and its computer are in good condition. ECU doesn't go bad (but watch out for corrosion) and AFM usually works if the flapper wasn't warped. Make sure wiring harness is not dried out especially the injector looms. System can be fine tuned using the adjustment screw on the AFM. You can use the original tii fuel pump, fuel filter, ignition system (distributor) etc as well. In the meantime, you can save $$$ for KF rebuilt. When KF is done, you can easily put everything back together.  I don't know much about Mega and other stuff but I know 318i EFi works. You can get it running in a couple of days max. I have done exactly the same thing. I was trying to convert to a Volvo 2.3 EFI Jetronic (digital) but ended up going with a 318i jetronic system.  AS a rule of thumb, get the last year's system (1985) as the wiring and other things seem to be of better quality, but 83-84 will work too. 

 

When you say you did the same thing, do you mean you went with L-jet on a tii or a carb? The simplicity of the L-Jet is definitely very appealing, even if it's just to buy me time while I get the KF pump up to snuff.

 

 

How about another option? How long can you stand the car off the road? Some of those options may take a while to piece together. How about a downdraft manifold and 32/36 while you make up your mind / collect components?

 

I'm comfortable enough to drive it with the KF installed while I collect parts. I'm chomping at the bit to do something, but I have to constantly remind myself that there's no need to rush.

 

I'm in the number 1 group, fix it and keep it the way the engineers designed it.

 

They definitely knew what they were doing. This car has been on the road for 40 years which is testament to the quality and reliability of a well cared for tii.

Nobody here can answer your question for you.  We may have personal opinions but we are not in your shoes.

My best advise is to go grab a beer/coffee and sit down with a pad of paper.  Think of what you want out of the car (and be honest with yourself [meaning prioritize your values and what you want out of the car]).  Literally visualize yourself in the car completely finished.  Decisions like what you are trying to make are much easier if you already have an end vision in your head.

My second advice is to meet up with local guys and try to get rides in a variety of 2002's.  You will find most guys are more than willing to take you for a ride if you ask.

Given your options, the only one that raises a red flag is option 3.

 

You're totally right - I've got be honest about what I really want and go with it. So tough! So many options, so much potential. The good news is that I love my car, it brings a smile to my face even when it's not behaving, so I'm sure I'll be happy no matter what I do.

 

 

JATO rocket on the roof.

 

 Well, I think that's all the input I need! Toby, you've inspired me. I'll be looking like Wiley Coyote in no time.

 

As a first course of action, I would send KF pump and injectors (and of course the warm up regulator) to a reputable builder (like Wes Ingram), depending on  budget. If this is too expensive up front, the most logical and simple/alternative solution would be to convert to a 318i L-Jetronic (analog) injection. It is not much adjustable but it was designed for M10 engine by BMW engineers and works surprisingly well with a tii engine. Very similar performance to MFI. Make sure 318i injectors are clean and that ICV and its computer are in good condition. ECU doesn't go bad (but watch out for corrosion) and AFM usually works if the flapper wasn't warped. Make sure wiring harness is not dried out especially the injector looms. System can be fine tuned using the adjustment screw on the AFM. You can use the original tii fuel pump, fuel filter, ignition system (distributor) etc as well. In the meantime, you can save $$$ for KF rebuilt. When KF is done, you can easily put everything back together.  I don't know much about Mega and other stuff but I know 318i EFi works. You can get it running in a couple of days max. I have done exactly the same thing. I was trying to convert to a Volvo 2.3 EFI Jetronic (digital) but ended up going with a 318i jetronic system.  AS a rule of thumb, get the last year's system (1985) as the wiring and other things seem to be of better quality, but 83-84 will work too. 

 

When you say you did the same thing, do you mean you went with L-jet on a tii or a carb? The simplicity of the L-Jet is definitely very appealing, even if it's just to buy me time while I get the KF pump up to snuff.

 

 

How about another option? How long can you stand the car off the road? Some of those options may take a while to piece together. How about a downdraft manifold and 32/36 while you make up your mind / collect components?

 

I'm comfortable enough to drive it with the KF installed while I collect parts. I'm chomping at the bit to do something, but I have to constantly remind myself that there's no need to rush.

 

I'm in the number 1 group, fix it and keep it the way the engineers designed it.

 

They definitely knew what they were doing. This car has been on the road for 40 years which is testament to the quality and reliability of a well cared for tii.

[Rooncicle]

Wes Ingram's site puts a rebuild at $1125 (another $300 for a set of 4 injectors), but I've not shopped around much. (Looked at one or two others and they were in the same ballpark.) If it was $800, that would be a much easier decision. Shoot, I'd probably pull the pump out and ship it tomorrow.

 

I definitely need to do more investigating - the pump may be okay for now - but the peace of mind that comes with a rebuilt pump would make me more comfortable with driving longer distances. To be fair, it did make the drive from LA to SF when I first bought it, so perhaps I'm making mountains out of mole hills.

 

I'd suggest that a logical first step is to get a firm understanding of the issue you are having right now. Is it really the K-fish, or something else? Wouldn't it suck to put a bunch of money into rebuilding the pump, only to realize that was not the problem?

 

Assuming you've done the above, Andrew gives some good advice. One thing I can't help but pick up on in your initial post though is about feeling the cost of rebuilding the K-fish is intimidating. If I recall correctly, this is something in the range of $800 (please correct me if I'm way off base here.) While that's not chump change, it is absolutely dwarfed by what you would spend on an M20 or S14 swap, not to mention that your car would "likely" have lesser resale value than if you left it as a tii, at least with the M20 route or a hopped up carb'd M10. Almost everybody on this board (including myself) says "I have no intention of selling my car" but the reality is that the vast majority of us do at some point; I'm getting ready to do that myself. In other words, don't let resale make your decision for you, but at least be conscious of the impact your decisions now will make on a future resale, especially on something like a tii.

 

Lastly, and again back to price, having done an MS install myself, I'd say your cost isn't going to be less than rebuilding the stock unit. Yes, some will tell you that you can spend all your weekends and evenings trolling Pick 'n Pull and do it for less, but really, is that how you want to spend all your time? Once you buy the ECU, swap parts, wiring, 02 sensor, etc, you WILL be in over $800, I can almost guarantee it. And THEN you need to start doing the install and tuning. Don't underestimate the cost or time it takes to do a nice MS install. I can't speak for the Bosch system as I've not touched it personally.

 

But whatever you do. Enjoy the process. Learn. Then gloat and post pictures of your successes like the rest of us.

[Son of Marty]

Eliminate any problems with fuel supply system first. Start by looking at the fuel supply pressure while running for the whole 20 minutes look to see if you are getting a pressure drop as the time goes by it should stay between 28 and 30 psi, if it drops with time try removing the gas cap to see if it goes back into range, if it does your tank vent is plugged some how, if not I would move on to the supply pump and filters next. If this is all good and the supplied volume of fuel is to spec, then check the cold start injector make sure it shuts off in time with no dripping. After all this then maybe pull the pump and send it to Wes to check out, while the pump may wear out eventually they usually don't fail mechanically.    

[DaHose]

Well ..... my take is as follows.

 

If it's a 4-speed, "regular" 02 then tinker away.  I am a fan of Megasquirt, or go with a 123ignition dizzy and a pair of 40 DCOE's.

 

If it's a Tii, then that is the model that will be worth bucks some day.  Don't mess with it.  Maybe drop in a bigger cam, but fix the K-fischer injection and enjoy it as it was mean to run.

 

If it's a Turbo, you are a damned idiot to piss around with that thing in any way.

 

Jose

[Conserv]

...If it's a Tii, then that is the model that will be worth bucks some day. Don't mess with it. Maybe drop in a bigger cam, but fix the K-fischer injection and enjoy it as it was mean to run....

Yes, but non-stock cams and Kugelfischers don't play well. Even "Kugelfischer whisperers" -- those are the best of the best -- cannot make Kugelfischer injection work correctly with anything beyond the stock cam, for which the '02 system was designed. Parts and knowledge once available to modify the pumps for alternative cams are no longer available. (And I've always wondered if, even back in the day, the re-recammed engines and pumps, worked great -- outside of a narrow rev range.)

If you're not ready to rebuild the injection correctly -- and the pump may or may NOT need rebuilding at this time -- remove the entire engine with injection, store it, and install a "play engine." But even before I headed that direction, I would first find a shop that REALLY knows Kugelfischers and I would have them set up your car's system correctly, without rebuilding the pump. The fact that you have not adjusted the linkage yet -- and 40-year-old linkages NEED adjusting -- suggests to me that there is still plenty of "low-hanging fruit" available short of a pump rebuild.

And the reason I'm suggesting a shop versed in Kugelfischer injection -- as opposed to you simply stepping through the many helpful threads on this forum and in the factory injection manual -- is that I believe there is a real qualitative difference between a.) a good mechanic going through the steps for the first time and b.) someone who has been working with these systems for years (a few forum members, professionals and non-professionals, qualify for this latter category).

Regards,

Steve

Edited November 25, 2015 by Conserv

[Rooncicle]

Eliminate any problems with fuel supply system first. Start by looking at the fuel supply pressure while running for the whole 20 minutes look to see if you are getting a pressure drop as the time goes by it should stay between 28 and 30 psi, if it drops with time try removing the gas cap to see if it goes back into range, if it does your tank vent is plugged some how, if not I would move on to the supply pump and filters next. If this is all good and the supplied volume of fuel is to spec, then check the cold start injector make sure it shuts off in time with no dripping. After all this then maybe pull the pump and send it to Wes to check out, while the pump may wear out eventually they usually don't fail mechanically.    

 

Good recommendations - I'll give that a shot

 

 

Well ..... my take is as follows.

 

If it's a 4-speed, "regular" 02 then tinker away.  I am a fan of Megasquirt, or go with a 123ignition dizzy and a pair of 40 DCOE's.

 

If it's a Tii, then that is the model that will be worth bucks some day.  Don't mess with it.  Maybe drop in a bigger cam, but fix the K-fischer injection and enjoy it as it was mean to run.

 

If it's a Turbo, you are a damned idiot to piss around with that thing in any way.

 

Jose

 

Don't worry, Jose, it's not a turbo. I really wish it was! 

 

Yes, but non-stock cams and Kugelfischers don't play well. Even "Kugelfischer whisperers" -- those are the best of the best -- cannot make Kugelfischer injection work correctly with anything beyond the stock cam, for which the '02 system was designed. Parts and knowledge once available to modify the pumps for alternative cams are no longer available. (And I've always wondered if, even back in the day, the re-recammed engines and pumps, worked great -- outside of a narrow rev range.)

If you're not ready to rebuild the injection correctly -- and the pump may or may NOT need rebuilding at this time -- remove the entire engine with injection, store it, and install a "play engine." But even before I headed that direction, I would first find a shop that REALLY knows Kugelfischers and I would have them set up your car's system correctly, without rebuilding the pump. The fact that you have not adjusted the linkage yet -- and 40-year-old linkages NEED adjusting -- suggests to me that there is still plenty of "low-hanging fruit" available short of a pump rebuild.

And the reason I'm suggesting a shop versed in Kugelfischer injection -- as opposed to you simply stepping through the many helpful threads on this forum and in the factory injection manual -- is that I believe there is a real qualitative difference between a.) a good mechanic going through the steps for the first time and b.) someone who has been working with these systems for years (a few forum members, professionals and non-professionals, qualify for this latter category).

Regards,

Steve

 

I'm going to buy some of the pre-measured linkages from Probimmer. It's a small investment and makes my life much easier.

 

I guess I'm not really interested in upgrading the cam, boring & upgrading the pistons, etc. One of my thoughts in my first post was pulling off the KF and installing EFI but in such a way that would be reversible in the future if I wanted to go traditional. But, pulling the whole engine and putting in a play engine sounds like a better idea. I have two roads I could take here:

 

1) I may be able to get an M20 from a friend for cheap

2) I have a spare tii head and block (including the KF). Maybe I get it rebuilt and store it along with the two pumps if/when I make the journey back to an original tii. Then I can play with the currently installed M10 without having to pull it. (I believe the spare matches the car's numbers anyway, so perhaps that the smart thing to do regardless.)

 

If I decide against pulling the pump, I'll search out some reputable 02 mechanics in the Bay Area (particularly South Bay) on the various 02 forums. Though, if anyone wants to recommend one that they know of offhand, please feel free.

 

This is just a tough decision to make - so many options! I know have time, but I absolutely love my car and I enjoy fiddling/modding things/working with my hands. I spend all day in an office, so being able to work on something tangible is such an escape. I appreciate everyones feedback, though. It's really good to hear the opinions of those more experienced than me.

[bluedevils]

When you say you did the same thing, do you mean you went with L-jet on a tii or a carb? The simplicity of the L-Jet is definitely very appealing, even if it's just to buy me time while I get the KF pump up to snuff.

 

On a 74 tii. 

[winstontj]

How about a MS EFI conversion using an early "log style" e21 intake manifold? If done properly it can be made to look much like a tii engine bay. So much so that it would take a good eye to spot the differences and there are a lot of performance mods that can be done within those confines. 

 

You can keep everything such that it could be swapped back and turned back into the original engine/car easily. Parts of the e21 engine harness can be plugged into the tii and then spliced so the tii harness can be kept unmolested. The early e21 log intake manifold will bolt directly onto your tii head without any modifications.