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Gears grinding: 1st and 2nd, but now 3rd?


joshkrahn

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I've had to baby 1st and 2nd gear since I got the car a couple of years ago. 1st needs to be at a near standstill. And 2nd needs a little careful pressure, just right, before it pops in. Try to shift too quick and they grind. 

 

Based on what I read here this is pretty common for old gearboxes with the Porsche-style synchros. So no biggie, I just baby it...

 

BUT suddenly 3rd gear is grinding too, worse than 1st and 2nd. Real bad. Sometimes I can achieve 3rd by clutching in, letting to engine wind down, and very slooooowly pushing the lever in. Other times I can't get it in at all.

 

Is this a synchro failure, or is something else going on?

 

FWIW, I also have floppy-shifter syndrome, but I don't think that's causing the trouble. Seems to behave the same no matter what "angle" I push from.

 

TIA,

Josh

1970 Granada 2002

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I wonder if your clutch is dragging.

 

To check it, sit at idle, clutch in for a while,  and then gently try to engage reverse.  If you can feel

a bit of gear clash when it goes in, it's probably dragging,

or the pilot bearing is starting to get stiff.  What's happening in these

cases is that the clutch isn't disengaging fully, and the input shaft's spinning

at engine speed.

 

t

Edited by TobyB

"I learn best through painful, expensive experience, so I feel like I've gotten my money's worth." MattL

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I wonder if your clutch is dragging.

 

To check it, sit at idle, clutch in for a while,  and then gently try to engage reverse.  If you can feel

a bit of gear clash when it goes in, it's probably dragging,

or the pilot bearing is starting to get stiff.  What's happening in these

cases is that the clutch isn't disengaging fully, and the input shaft's spinning

at engine speed.

 

t

Agree with Toby. Sounds like clutch is going.

2xM3

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I have to be pretty much stopped to put the car into first but everything else is fine.. I second the clutch, the gearboxes are pretty robust and usually 3rd doesn't just go like that... 

 

Usually...

76' Fjord Daily SOLD

1986 528e 5 speed Daily

 

"I don't have a piece of sh*t so I have to envy yours!" - Ferris Bueller

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As a '70 this car would have the early 4 speed with the Porsche style syncro rings. They are very sensitive to the type of oil you use. Any Hypoid oil is going to give you trouble and I don't think MTL is heavy enough to keep them from wearing quickly ( I have not had one of these boxes in my car since '82) They are expensive to rebuild and you might be better off to find a '72 or later box with the cone style BW synchros.

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

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Have you been noticing the fluid level in the brake fluid reservoir is dropping?  Try using a pencil as a dipsitck and poke it down into the pedal bucket; if it comes up wet, then the clutch M/C is leaking  Check under the car for a leaking slave cylinder.  If there's a leak (and therefore air) in the clutch hydraulic system, your clutch won't fully disengage even when the pedal is to the floor.  Then gears will grind when you try to shift.  Worth a look...and cheaper than replacing the clutch.

 

cheers

mike

'69 Nevada sunroof-Wolfgang-bought new
'73 Sahara sunroof-Ludwig-since '78
'91 Brillantrot 318is sunroof-Georg Friederich 
Fiat Topolini (Benito & Luigi), Renault 4CVs (Anatole, Lucky Pierre, Brigette) & Kermit, the Bugeye Sprite

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To check it, sit at idle, clutch in for a while,  and then gently try to engage reverse.  If you can feel a bit of gear clash when it goes in, it's probably dragging, or the pilot bearing is starting to get stiff.

 

Tried this on the way home last night, and again this AM. As long as I'm at a complete stop, reverse seems to glide in easily without clash. Hmm.

 

 

Try some Red Line MTL and see if that helps.

 

I have 2 bottles of MTL. It's been on my to-do list. I guess I'll move it to the top of the list.

 

 

Any Hypoid oil is going to give you trouble and I don't think MTL is heavy enough to keep them from wearing quickly

 

I've not heard this before. Is there a trans fluid that's better for early boxes? All I know is GL-5 = bad.

 

Try using a pencil as a dipsitck and poke it down into the pedal bucket; if it comes up wet, then the clutch M/C is leaking

 

I'll try this. I haven't noticed any leaking, but I haven't checked closely since I flushed and bled the system, like 6 months ago.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Josh

1970 Granada 2002

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The factory spec for oil in the 232/6 gearbox is "Branded SAE 80 or 90 gearbox oil or branded HD oil for for-stroke engines according to engine oil specifications; Not Hypoid Oil"

 

MTL is for use in gearboxes that originally used ATF or GL4 oil.  The e21 and e12 and later boxes were designed to run ATF (like the 245/5 that everyone uses for the 5 speed conversion)  They tightened up the clearances to accommodate the thinner oil, it was primarily done for fuel economy (thinner oil is less drag than thick oil)   

 

It sounds to me like the synchros are just worn out, changing oil is easy and cheep and worth a try but I don't give you much of a chance of it doing any good.  If that gearbox has never been apart you might just have the oldest living 232 in the world.  1st and 2nd gear Synchro were gone in my '70 in 1974.   

Edited by Preyupy

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

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Thanks Preyupy, is this Lucas Oil what I want?

http://lucasoil.com/products/gear-oil/gear-oil/lucas-heavy-duty-80w-90-gear-oil

 

To be honest, I can't guarantee it's the original gearbox. I just assumed based on the car's vintage. Is there an easy visual to check? Is the number stamped or cast on the casing?

 

Josh

1970 Granada 2002

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if it is rated for diffs it is usually a hypoid oil these days,  I think I would find some 50 or 60w engine oil and try it.  Back in the '70's it was tough to find Non-Hypoid oil and I'm sure it has not gotten any easier.  I have not had to work on the Porsche style boxes in many years so I'm not up to date on finding the correct oil any longer.  I don't remember there being any outside difference in the cases, the 242 boxes still had 232 casting numbers on them so that will not help you out.  Maybe if you can find the date stamp on the rear housing (I think it might be on the inside of the casting, I just don't remember) and it is '71 or earlier it is probably a 232 box.  I could always tell by the "feel" when shifting them but if you have never driven both it would be hard to tell. 

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

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