But did you read the description?! Body not original right? Parts swapped into another car...?! That's a bad thing right? --I'm asking.
Granted its a sweet car, but can it demand the price of a 100% original Ti in the same condition?
Seriously, I'm asking.
_________________
2002 Newbie and dead serious about it.
73 Huffy 3 speed w' original red line slick

Basically what he's selling is a re-shelled 2002ti. The VIN was swapped into a different shell. So it's not a "real" 2002ti now, but one made to appear like it.

I give him kudos for telling people he did the VIN swap, being what he's doing it technically illegal, at least here in the USA and I myself would never post on the internet that I did such a thing. All it would take is an ebayer to contact the federal government to have them possibly come take the car from you and crush it. I'm surprised ebay themselves haven't canceled the auction yet.

I also wouldn't want to try to register the car in the USA hoping in the inspection they didn't figure out the car's VIN's been swapped to another chassis. Granted most inspections are visual just looking at the VIN plate and not any place else, so it'd probably fly. I vaguely remember having my 2002 inspected by the Washington state patrol some 15 years ago. At the time they inspected the standard VIN fender locations but they also looked under the car to find another VIN number. I can't remember if they found one or not. I myself don't know of any VIN stamped under the car, but they have their "secret" book of hidden VIN locations for all makes and models of cars. They used to use it when inspecting out of state, re-built, reconstructed or otherwise damaged vehicles. I remember the cop telling me about all the Corvettes and camaros they used to catch with swapped VIN's and then refuse to title/register them.

The whole point of owning a ti is the fact it's a "real" one, not a "made up" one, so I hope the prospective buyers also realize this and don't pay silly money for a fakey-do.

As for the DOT compliance sticker on the door from a California car.... again, hoping for a USA sale and to bring more $.

Personally I'd stay far away from it, even though it's a nice looking car. Some day you'll have to re-sell it, and is the next buyer in line going to swallow the same story as you re-tell it 10 years later, about the VIN swap? Or are you going to lie and not say anything? I personally don't want to be put into that situation... either lie or tell the truth and hope for a sale.

WH

i would love to own an authentic ti, but have resigned myself to acquiring 95% of the original ti-specific parts. i even had a VIN plate made up to state "1600TI spec" so as not to come off as anything other than a clone.

as far as i'm concerned, the only thing more this car has than my assemblage of ti parts is the ti-engine block and cam. the ti VIN plate is no longer relevant to the body.

having commented on it though, i'd love to own this car, although i think the bigger enjoyment is to do the rehab personally.

It is not unusual for race and rally cars to be rebodied.

You'll find a number of Porsches, Jags, Minis and MGS rebodied as well.

As far as I'm concerned, this car, having been extensively rusted, is far better off with a rust-free shell and factory welds in place than a patched-up rustbucket.

As long a the seller reveals the car history there should be no problem. And though it's not as valuable as an unrusted and original example, it's still a significant collectible.

If the owner were passing it off as an original, then there's reason to cry foul.

AFAIK, the 02 series has only the inner stamp on the RF inner fender to determine it's provenance.

Since the ti was never imported into the USA, it's quite likely the car spent time in damp or snow/salty climates for quite a few years before reaching North America. From a global perspective it will be a rare car and will likely be more desirable to foreign buyers.

Personally, I'd love to have it.

Cheers!

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii - gone
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com

Delia wrote:

It is not unusual for race and rally cars to be rebodied. You'll find a number of Porsches, Jags, Minis and MGS rebodied as well. As far as I'm concerned, this car, having been extensively rusted, is far better off with a rust-free shell and factory welds in place than a patched-up rustbucket. As long a the seller reveals the car history there should be no problem. And though it's not as valuable as an unrusted and original example, it's still a significant collectible. If the owner were passing it off as an original, then there's reason to cry foul. AFAIK, the 02 series has only the inner stamp on the RF inner fender to determine it's provenance. Since the ti was never imported into the USA, it's quite likely the car spent time in damp or snow/salty climates for quite a few years before reaching North America. From a global perspective it will be a rare car and will likely be more desirable to foreign buyers. Personally, I'd love to have it. Cheers! Delia

Hi Delia,

I can't say much about race or rally cars, as who knows what the factory did when their race cars where rebuilt during a racing season.....

As for Porsches I have a hard time swallowing that it's cosher to re-install a VIN plate from one 356 or early 911 to another car, maybe some have done it, I wouldn't buy a car that was, if I knew about it.

As for Jags, Mg's, Mini's etc. In general the same applies there, sure I've seen many a MG titled with the wrong VIN (a MG midget plate bolted to a MGB). Many MG's only have the VIN plate to identify the car, no VIN stamped into the metal. Midgets and sprites have a body number stamped into them but that doesn't match the VIN, Many MGB's have a VIN stamped into them on the floor pan or other places (my MGC's always did). As for Mini's, sure I've seen many a mid 1970's chassis titled a a mid 1960's one, but the only person who'd buy it, is one that doesn't know any better.

What makes a car collectable??? the original VIN plate or the car itself? I mean this car is not a real 2002ti now, only a different chassis with original ti parts bolted to it. I could build one of those myself, since I have a ti engine sitting. Sure I'd be minus the correct VIN plate...

Oh wait I forgot I can buy a new VIN plate and stamp it to match, right?
Maybe I could just stamp the chassis too, Why not? I mean I can either cut out and replace the VIN area with new metal or weld the chassis's original VIN up, grind it flat so you can't tell and then re-stamp it to look like factory and then get some paperwork out of Georgia that says I have a real ti after this is all done.

See what I mean? Would it still be collectable???

This is the problem all older Marques go through when trying to verify real authentic cars. Many clubs have formed registeries to keep track of real cars or forgeries (like the Shelby SAAC). Others have independent entities that verify the cars as being original, Mopars, Ford and Chevy for years have been flooded with "fake" muscle cars, it's now a serious problem and they are fighting hard to correct it. There is no one to authenticate BMW's right now as being correct or original, but years from now only the real cars will be worth collecting, the others will just be fakey-doos and nothing more.

Cheers!


WH

WH wrote:

Delia wrote: It is not unusual for race and rally cars to be rebodied. You'll find a number of Porsches, Jags, Minis and MGS rebodied as well. As far as I'm concerned, this car, having been extensively rusted, is far better off with a rust-free shell and factory welds in place than a patched-up rustbucket. As long a the seller reveals the car history there should be no problem. And though it's not as valuable as an unrusted and original example, it's still a significant collectible. If the owner were passing it off as an original, then there's reason to cry foul. AFAIK, the 02 series has only the inner stamp on the RF inner fender to determine it's provenance. Since the ti was never imported into the USA, it's quite likely the car spent time in damp or snow/salty climates for quite a few years before reaching North America. From a global perspective it will be a rare car and will likely be more desirable to foreign buyers. Personally, I'd love to have it. Cheers! Delia Hi Delia, I can't say much about race or rally cars, as who knows what the factory did when their race cars where rebuilt during a racing season..... As for Porsches I have a hard time swallowing that it's cosher to re-install a VIN plate from one 356 or early 911 to another car, maybe some have done it, I wouldn't buy a car that was, if I knew about it. As for Jags, Mg's, Mini's etc. In general the same applies there, sure I've seen many a MG titled with the wrong VIN (a MG midget plate bolted to a MGB). Many MG's only have the VIN plate to identify the car, no VIN stamped into the metal. Midgets and sprites have a body number stamped into them but that doesn't match the VIN, Many MGB's have a VIN stamped into them on the floor pan or other places (my MGC's always did). As for Mini's, sure I've seen many a mid 1970's chassis titled a a mid 1960's one, but the only person who'd buy it, is one that doesn't know any better. What makes a car collectable??? the original VIN plate or the car itself? I mean this car is not a real 2002ti now, only a different chassis with original ti parts bolted to it. I could build one of those myself, since I have a ti engine sitting. Sure I'd be minus the correct VIN plate... Oh wait I forgot I can buy a new VIN plate and stamp it to match, right? Maybe I could just stamp the chassis too, Why not? I mean I can either cut out and replace the VIN area with new metal or weld the chassis's original VIN up, grind it flat so you can't tell and then re-stamp it to look like factory and then get some paperwork out of Georgia that says I have a real ti after this is all done. See what I mean? Would it still be collectable??? This is the problem all older Marques go through when trying to verify real authentic cars. Many clubs have formed registeries to keep track of real cars or forgeries (like the Shelby SAAC). Others have independent entities that verify the cars as being original, Mopars, Ford and Chevy for years have been flooded with "fake" muscle cars, it's now a serious problem and they are fighting hard to correct it. There is no one to authenticate BMW's right now as being correct or original, but years from now only the real cars will be worth collecting, the others will just be fakey-doos and nothing more. Cheers! WH

I see what you mean. It's NOT a real yet I still think it's collectible.

Recently, a Jag XKS or some similar rare factory racing car was discovered with a hand-fabbed body. The number plate was intact. Strangely, due to someone having a front crossmember or similar chassis part, the VIN was awarded to a handbuilt, pseudo-Jag. Jaguar Heritage pulled the certificate of authenticity from the pseudo-Jag. Ouch!

My friend Bob put together a lovely 356 Porsche Cabriolet from two crashed parts cars he had in his backyard. From the cowl rearward, it was pure cabby. From the cowl forward he cobbled together a reasonable transition to a Super 90 coupe. Cobbled because the undercowl supports of the cabriolet and coupe are different. Is it a real cabriolet and worth roughly twice the price of the coupe?

British Heritage makes MGB bodies from the original dies. You can buy one and swap all the parts from your rust-bucket MGB and register it with your old VIN. Is it a fake?

The British Works Rally Teams with their Healeys and Minis (think Paddy Hopkirk and the Monte) often had their cars rebodied. Are they no longer works rally cars?

These are documented rebodies and the facts are fully disclosed.

In the case of this ti the seller is telling the story as it is. Whomever wins the bid for this car gets a rebodied 2002ti.

Is it authentic? No.

Is it a forgery? No.

Is it desirable?

Yes.

Worry about it's value as a future collectible in the future. It's documented on ebay and elsewhere on the internet.

You asked the collective conscience their opinion. That's mine.

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii - gone
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com

Gee, didn't meet reserve. Bidding went over $13K.

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii - gone
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com