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Thread Topic: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man Threaded

   
Date: 7-15-08 07:22
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

July 15, 2008


REVIEW & OUTLOOK


DOW JONES REPRINTS



The $4 Billion Senator
July 15, 2008; Page A18

The federal takeover of IndyMac Bank over the weekend could cost the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. between $4 billion and $8 billion. But Senator Chuck Schumer, who helped to precipitate the collapse by publicizing a letter to the bank's regulator last month, has no remorse.

He was, he says, just doing his job in telling regulators that the bank "could face a collapse," a prophecy that quickly proved to be self-fulfilling. "It's what legislators are supposed to do," the New York Democrat told the Journal. Depositors who spent Monday trying to recover some of their money might beg to differ.


The Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS), whose job it actually was to regulate IndyMac, took a different view. "The immediate cause of the closing," the OTS wrote in a press release, "was a deposit run that began and continued after the public release of a June 26 letter to the OTS and the FDIC from Senator Charles Schumer of New York." The OTS added: "In the following 11 business days, depositors withdrew more than $1.3 billion from their accounts."

Mr. Schumer now argues that OTS was asleep at the switch, and that blaming him is like blaming "the fire on the guy who called 911." In fact, it's blaming the guy who poured on the gasoline. Very few banks, if any, would remain standing for long in the current tense financial environment after a Senator, in effect, told its depositors to run for the exits. In the 1930s, such tipsters were derided as rumormongers and often faced indictment for encouraging depositors to stampede banks.

Only last week, the Securities and Exchange Commission announced an investigation into the role of rumor-peddlers in the run on Bear Stearns. We somehow doubt that Mr. Schumer will receive similar SEC scrutiny for his very similar role in bringing about a liquidity crisis at IndyMac. But he may be more deserving.

Last week, Mr. Schumer's Senate colleague Chris Dodd took the spotlight to insist that everything was fine, just fine, at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. For how that turned out, see here1. In its own way, Mr. Dodd's declaration was as irresponsible as Mr. Schumer's, given that its goal was to protect the companies from greater regulatory scrutiny of the kind long proposed by the Bush Administration.

Of course, it is much easier to talk a bank out of existence, as Mr. Schumer has now done, than to talk Fannie and Freddie into solvency. And no one is pretending that IndyMac was untroubled before Mr. Schumer wrote his letter. The bank had suffered heavy losses in its mortgage portfolio and was openly seeking new private capital to shore up its balance sheet.

But Mr. Schumer was not content merely to share his profound concern with regulators. He also leaked the June 26 letter to the press – which is more like shouting "fire" in a crowded bank than dialing 911.

See all of today's editorials and op-eds, plus video commentary, on Opinion Journal2.


Way to go, Chuck. You sure scored political points against the evil Bush administration. A paragon of virtue. Good man.
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-15-08 07:48
From: Delia in "Don't call it 'Frisco'" View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

That's really great, Georgie!

FYI, that's NOT news, it's from an Op-Ed column.

Using a biased substantiation of "facts" to support your point of view in such a flaccid manner speaks volumes about your ethics and character.

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com



Date: 7-15-08 08:04
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Delia wrote:
That's really great, Georgie!

FYI, that's NOT news, it's from an Op-Ed column.

Using a biased substantiation of "facts" to support your point of view in such a flaccid manner speaks volumes about your ethics and character.

Delia


I'll try to be civil here.

It is an op-ed, brilliant!

It cites the OTS, a federal agency that regulates and supervises the S&L's in America, as pinpointing one of the culprits as Schumer and his intentional leak of a private letter to the OTS and FDIC for political gain. That is not opinion, it is a factual report of what the OTS sees as a contributor to the failure of IndyMac.

geesh!


Also, FWIW, i've been called Georgie all my life. You and Richard ought to be more inventive and original if you think that gets under my skin, sweetie.
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-15-08 08:50
From: robspeed in INDIANAHHH!!!! =D View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:
Delia wrote:
That's really great, Georgie!

FYI, that's NOT news, it's from an Op-Ed column.

Using a biased substantiation of "facts" to support your point of view in such a flaccid manner speaks volumes about your ethics and character.

Delia


I'll try to be civil here.

It is an op-ed, brilliant!

It cites the OTS, a federal agency that regulates and supervises the S&L's in America, as pinpointing one of the culprits as Schumer and his intentional leak of a private letter to the OTS and FDIC for political gain. That is not opinion, it is a factual report of what the OTS sees as a contributor to the failure of IndyMac.

geesh!


Also, FWIW, i've been called Georgie all my life. You and Richard ought to be more inventive and original if you think that gets under my skin, sweetie.


gee dubya beee, as a lifelong democrat and such, i have to say i can't stand schumer, nor most other democrats in leadership today. the only guy i like is Weld from va. As soon as we picked kerry in 04, and heard him talking, i knew the demos were doomed. the congressional leadership we (demos) have now is a bunch of wussy cowards who dont have the balls to really take on botchie. Crimes and misdeameanors? Botch has most definitely broken many laws, and we (demos--exception kucinich) do nothing. Yes I hate the players, AND the game...

This season started interesting and I was excited for a while, but lately its been a colossal turnoff....
_________________
-Rob S.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!! www.jennaishealed.org !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Date: 7-15-08 09:53
From: Armond in Marin County View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Very good point Rob. The dems have not done anything except to complain and demonize people. No action, No leadership,No guts, No core. All talk..No action. What a waste.
_________________
73 Tii. My Daily driver
Volvo V70 Turbo,Wagon

Ad Deum Per Fidem Mores Culturam



Date: 7-15-08 01:32
From: dhs View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Making Schummer a scape goat for what happened to IndyMac is a cop out IMHO. Forgetting political inclinations here - To me a better question is why was this bank still in business? Are the foxes watching the hen house???????



Date: 7-15-08 02:03
From: Delia in "Don't call it 'Frisco'" View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Armond wrote:
The dems have not done anything except to complain and demonize people. No action, No leadership,No guts, No core. All talk..No action. What a waste.


Armond,

We keep getting this response from you over and over again. Are you actually typing this out or merely cutting and pasting from one of your previous posts?

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com



Date: 7-15-08 03:14
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

robspeed wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:
Delia wrote:
That's really great, Georgie!

FYI, that's NOT news, it's from an Op-Ed column.

Using a biased substantiation of "facts" to support your point of view in such a flaccid manner speaks volumes about your ethics and character.

Delia


I'll try to be civil here.

It is an op-ed, brilliant!

It cites the OTS, a federal agency that regulates and supervises the S&L's in America, as pinpointing one of the culprits as Schumer and his intentional leak of a private letter to the OTS and FDIC for political gain. That is not opinion, it is a factual report of what the OTS sees as a contributor to the failure of IndyMac.

geesh!


Also, FWIW, i've been called Georgie all my life. You and Richard ought to be more inventive and original if you think that gets under my skin, sweetie.


gee dubya beee, as a lifelong democrat and such, i have to say i can't stand schumer, nor most other democrats in leadership today. the only guy i like is Weld from va. As soon as we picked kerry in 04, and heard him talking, i knew the demos were doomed. the congressional leadership we (demos) have now is a bunch of wussy cowards who dont have the balls to really take on botchie. Crimes and misdeameanors? Botch has most definitely broken many laws, and we (demos--exception kucinich) do nothing. Yes I hate the players, AND the game...

This season started interesting and I was excited for a while, but lately its been a colossal turnoff....


you know, rob, at one time there was actual meaningful disagreement on policy issues between repubs and dems. today, everything is a wedge issue, mostly from the left as i see it. missle shields are opposed by the dem leadership mostly cause they're a product of repub admins.
it's about being elected, not about what you're going to do, and it is very old and tiresome, no matter which party does it. schumer purposely leaking a letter that help spread panic for political points is bullshit. he would have been hauled in before the feds back in the depression for what he did, and he can't even admit to being partly responsible. the guy is as big a buffoon as gore.
my biggest issue this election is fiscal spending. this country is going to bankrupt my kids, and i will vote for the candidate that will be the most frugal. therefore, obama is toast with me as his platform is expansion of gov't spending.
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-15-08 03:41
From: inkatouring in San Francisco, California View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:
you know, rob, at one time there was actual meaningful disagreement on policy issues between repubs and dems. today, everything is a wedge issue, mostly from the left as i see it. missle shields are opposed by the dem leadership mostly cause they're a product of repub admins.
it's about being elected, not about what you're going to do, and it is very old and tiresome, no matter which party does it. schumer purposely leaking a letter that help spread panic for political points is bullshit. he would have been hauled in before the feds back in the depression for what he did, and he can't even admit to being partly responsible. the guy is as big a buffoon as gore.
my biggest issue this election is fiscal spending. this country is going to bankrupt my kids, and i will vote for the candidate that will be the most frugal. therefore, obama is toast with me as his platform is expansion of gov't spending.


I agree with your general thesis on all points and violently disagree on the conclusions therein.* That said, no one is really being served by the type of politics we have been seeing for the past 16 years. In my view -- whether it is the Repubs going after Clinton for every little (and big) thing under the sun, to the Dem's complete lack of leadership or prinicple on core issues -- the game has taken over the game (kinda like the flop in the NBA).

Thus, as much as he is playing a game to win game, O-man could be a small step in the right direction. As your favorite political philosopher said "The journey of 10,000 miles starts with a single step."



* - Terrorism and the war (whether or not one agrees with the Presidents positions) have certainly been used by the right as a wedge issue in extraordinary fashion for the past 6 years, when they should have used to unite us, not to advance the agenda of a small majority, at best.

And the economy has been much worse under the past three Republican presidents than under Clinton. While I certainly (as a Dem) am very scared by the prospect of a Dem in the WH and the Dems controlling both houses of congress, recent history nonetheless shows your party of alleged small government to be fair worse stewarts of the economy, IMHO.
_________________
“...democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

-Winston Churchill

[the faqer formerly known as schnell540]





Date: 7-15-08 04:29
From: 2761377 View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

[quote="inkatouring"][And the economy has been much worse under the past three Republican presidents than under Clinton. [quote]

unless three is beyond my ability to count, you are including ronald reagan in your list. really?

in my industry, housing, the reagan years are considered golden years. he pulled us out of recession in the early eighties, and a boom kept up until keating and pals, under g.h.w.b., caused the last meltdown. from which it took until well into clinton's second term to recover.

from my worm's eye view



Date: 7-15-08 05:17
From: inkatouring in San Francisco, California View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

2761377 wrote:
unless three is beyond my ability to count, you are including ronald reagan in your list. really?

in my industry, housing, the reagan years are considered golden years. he pulled us out of recession in the early eighties, and a boom kept up until keating and pals, under g.h.w.b., caused the last meltdown. from which it took until well into clinton's second term to recover.

from my worm's eye view


But Reagan's "boom" was built on printing money and increasing the deficit -- something he claimed to be against -- and the house of cards came falling down. Were they good times until the S&L scandals? Of course, just like they were when GWB mirrored his hero. But, being a good stewart of the economy does not mean creating a temporary expansion based on increasing your debt. It is better to create a sustainable expansion based on reducing your debt. That is done by being smart about your expenses and increasing revenue, a la Clinton.
_________________
“...democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

-Winston Churchill

[the faqer formerly known as schnell540]





Date: 7-15-08 05:37
From: 2761377 View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

inkatouring wrote:
being a good stewart of the economy does not mean creating a temporary expansion based on increasing your debt. ... and increasing revenue, a la Clinton.


where does the .com bubble fit in this view? and, do you really think increasing taxes benefits the economy as a whole?

unimportant digression- by inference, you think gerald ford was a better steward than clinton. do you remember stagflation?



Date: 7-15-08 06:45
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

inkatouring wrote:
2761377 wrote:
unless three is beyond my ability to count, you are including ronald reagan in your list. really?

in my industry, housing, the reagan years are considered golden years. he pulled us out of recession in the early eighties, and a boom kept up until keating and pals, under g.h.w.b., caused the last meltdown. from which it took until well into clinton's second term to recover.

from my worm's eye view


But Reagan's "boom" was built on printing money and increasing the deficit -- something he claimed to be against -- and the house of cards came falling down. Were they good times until the S&L scandals? Of course, just like they were when GWB mirrored his hero. But, being a good stewart of the economy does not mean creating a temporary expansion based on increasing your debt. It is better to create a sustainable expansion based on reducing your debt. That is done by being smart about your expenses and increasing revenue, a la Clinton.


well mr inka man, it's obvious you will not be voting for O man, eh.
if you are really worried about reducing the debt and gov't deficit spending, O man is not your man.
might be we're voting for the same guy, eh?
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-15-08 09:24
From: inkatouring in San Francisco, California View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

2761377 wrote:
do you really think increasing taxes benefits the economy as a whole?


Depending on how you do it, yes, it can help. Do it wrong, it can hurt. But there arte investments in the future that warrant significant expenditures (education, mainly) and you got to pay for it. If you target money to help shape our post-industrial society, and you raise taxes to pay for, you more than make your money back. If you raise taxes and spend it on pork, then you're in trouble.
_________________
“...democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

-Winston Churchill

[the faqer formerly known as schnell540]





Date: 7-15-08 11:33
From: Pinepig in Citrus Heights, CA View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

inkatouring wrote:
If you raise taxes and spend it on pork, then you're in trouble.


Quick, name the last time the gov didn't spend extra tax money on pork.
_________________
Charlie Mac in Sacramento.
My Blog

I'm an كافر



Date: 7-16-08 06:54
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Pinepig wrote:
inkatouring wrote:
If you raise taxes and spend it on pork, then you're in trouble.


Quick, name the last time the gov didn't spend extra tax money on pork.


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-16-08 04:58
From: Delia in "Don't call it 'Frisco'" View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.

"An analysis of the relevant research literature, however, finds little grounds to support tax cuts and incentives—especially when they occur at the expense of public investment—as the best means to expand employment and spur growth."

Read the entire "Rethinking Growth" article here:

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/books_rethinking_growth

Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com



Date: 7-17-08 05:09
From: 2761377 View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.



Date: 7-17-08 06:00
From: inkatouring in San Francisco, California View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle. .


Only elitists believe something is true because it is taught in school or is attached to an intelectual theory. Evolution is taught in school. So is that we are a free country with a Bill of Rights that protects us.
_________________
“...democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

-Winston Churchill

[the faqer formerly known as schnell540]





Date: 7-17-08 06:33
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.


thank you thank you thank you
this country was formed in part to throw off oppressive government, only to drift, over the past 200+yrs, right back to the same predicament.
one reason history is an important subject that is taught in school only to be ignored by both political parties.
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-17-08 11:19
From: Delia in "Don't call it 'Frisco'" View user's profile
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:
2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.


thank you thank you thank you
this country was formed in part to throw off oppressive government, only to drift, over the past 200+yrs, right back to the same predicament.
one reason history is an important subject that is taught in school only to be ignored by both political parties.


I guess you guys didn't read the paragraph I posted from the article I linked. I'm looking for proof -- facts that suggest a small hint of critical thinking on your part(s), then having open discussion. And while you may believe otherwise, dismissing the argument doesn't mean you win. In fact, you lose.


Delia
_________________
1973 2002tii
Inka (aka "Orange Julius")
VIN 2762756

1974 2002tii - gone
Polaris (aka "Mae West")
VIN 2782824

BMW CCA member #1974

www.oldschoolbmw.com

deliawolfe@gmail.com



Date: 7-19-08 12:48
From: robspeed in INDIANAHHH!!!! =D View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:
2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.


thank you thank you thank you
this country was formed in part to throw off oppressive government, only to drift, over the past 200+yrs, right back to the same predicament.
one reason history is an important subject that is taught in school only to be ignored by both political parties.


I guess you guys didn't read the paragraph I posted from the article I linked. I'm looking for proof -- facts that suggest a small hint of critical thinking on your part(s), then having open discussion. And while you may believe otherwise, dismissing the argument doesn't mean you win. In fact, you lose.


Delia


government taxing/spending has a multiplyer effect that stimulates the economy more than just handing it back to taxpayers. that i learned in econ 101.
_________________
-Rob S.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!! www.jennaishealed.org !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Date: 7-19-08 01:34
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

robspeed wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:
2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.


thank you thank you thank you
this country was formed in part to throw off oppressive government, only to drift, over the past 200+yrs, right back to the same predicament.
one reason history is an important subject that is taught in school only to be ignored by both political parties.


I guess you guys didn't read the paragraph I posted from the article I linked. I'm looking for proof -- facts that suggest a small hint of critical thinking on your part(s), then having open discussion. And while you may believe otherwise, dismissing the argument doesn't mean you win. In fact, you lose.


Delia


government taxing/spending has a multiplyer effect that stimulates the economy more than just handing it back to taxpayers. that i learned in econ 101.


unfortunately, it doesn't multiply it as much as the private sector would do by leaving it taxpayers' pockets. government spurred growth is the most inefficient way to obtain growth, and also leads to misallocation of resources, something else we all learned in econ 101.

it's social engineering
_________________
gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)



Date: 7-20-08 08:10
From: robspeed in INDIANAHHH!!!! =D View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:
robspeed wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:
2761377 wrote:
Delia wrote:
gwb72tii wrote:


all taxes are regressive, that is, all taxes slow economic activity.


That statement is arguable.


Delia



no, not really arguable. econ 101 teaches this principle.

rather, we accept the drain taxes impose to facilitate other societal advances. law enforcement, infrastructure, etc.

political philosophy determines ones' view on the extent of taxation. you and others look to the government as the nanny of modern society- some folks, myself included, value individual freedom more highly.


thank you thank you thank you
this country was formed in part to throw off oppressive government, only to drift, over the past 200+yrs, right back to the same predicament.
one reason history is an important subject that is taught in school only to be ignored by both political parties.


I guess you guys didn't read the paragraph I posted from the article I linked. I'm looking for proof -- facts that suggest a small hint of critical thinking on your part(s), then having open discussion. And while you may believe otherwise, dismissing the argument doesn't mean you win. In fact, you lose.


Delia


government taxing/spending has a multiplyer effect that stimulates the economy more than just handing it back to taxpayers. that i learned in econ 101.


unfortunately, it doesn't multiply it as much as the private sector would do by leaving it taxpayers' pockets. government spurred growth is the most inefficient way to obtain growth, and also leads to misallocation of resources, something else we all learned in econ 101.

it's social engineering


no, it doesn't. when the government spends, it spends it twice. first the government itself gets paid (workers, bureacracy) and then the actual projects happpen, like military and other infrastructure, etc. the leaving it in taxpayers pockets thing has merit, but it is not the most effective way to stimulate the economy. how about rebuilding the nations bridges and other infrastructure? remember that bridge collapse that kille however many people in wherever that was? ever stop to think about how all the out-of-control earmarks and other porky spending during the 01-06 republican congress helped the botch economy?
_________________
-Rob S.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!! www.jennaishealed.org !!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Date: 7-20-08 09:38
From: gwb72tii in the great PNW View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

so tell me, after you pay workers and wash the $ thru the maze of government, it creates more jobs and more GDP in the long run than capitalism?
it can't.
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gwb72tii

Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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Date: 7-20-08 09:47
From: robspeed in INDIANAHHH!!!! =D View user's profile Send e-mail
Subject: Re: Follow-up Chuck Schumer, the $4 billion dollar man

gwb72tii wrote:
so tell me, after you pay workers and wash the $ thru the maze of government, it creates more jobs and more GDP in the long run than capitalism?
it can't.



i meant to edit my earlier post: I *think* thats how it works, econ 101 was a long time ago. it might have something to do with the govt borrowing the money to spend it, i forget. the money is spent, it puts money in people's pockets whether they are govt workers or pvt workers. so either way it drives the economy. there has to be a balance of course, but govt spending isnt necessarily evil per se. the botchie/cheney no bid contracts that line fatcat wallets, now that is evil. kbr abandoning trucks and setting them on fire because a tire blew and adding it to their "cost-plus" ledger sheet is stupid and wasteful; any type of corruption like that is evil, that is where the waste comes in. of course you could look at it as just a stimulus for the truck-building industry....
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