I believe the patent for the enjector is held by Harley.

Manifold is successfully welded together. Slide assembly is put together and seems like it could work. Intake side is problematic. Space is very limited to make an airbox.

Not sure if I will make it running for May 1st Wednesday when the track opens. Race practice is possible on every wednesday and there's only 4 of them in a month so it would be important. 1st race is June 9.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

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Two practice days have gone without Goodfellas BMW. I'm late from schedule because I didn't get all the parts in the winter as I planned and I just can't rush things. But there's still chance to be ready for the first race.

I got the car running first time last sunday after fighting with injection parameters for two days. Got the engine warm only to see that throttle got completely stuck. I opened the slide assembly and it made sure that teflon plate expanded and got distorted from the heat. -> plan B. Teflon plate away. Then I made only 4mm wide rings from teflon and had grooves milled for them. Now it's back together and ready for new try.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

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great work as always!

I'm also making an airbox from aluminum for my weber.

Should be fun!

Keep us posted as always! Love to see your progress!
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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

Sorry guys that I've not given any updates lately.
I got the engine running for dyno tuning just before our first race. We got the injection tuned ok but the result was not what I expected. Torque cuts down after 5500 rpm so there is not much power even though it happily revs till 8500. We couldn't fine tune ignition because water pump motor burnt but I don't believe that's the problem. There's something that is wrong in dimensioning intake/exhaust or something else.

I went to races anyway and finished 3rd but I really wasn't happy for that as once again everybody passed me on the straights. Lack of power was the problem, otherwise everything was ok.

Since that I've not had energy or interest to troubleshoot the problem so I skipped the second race weekend. Now I don't know if I'm going to race this season anymore.
I would need ideas to test at dyno, prepare so that they can be tried (whole lot of work), hours of dyno time ($$$), new tires ($$$ again), etc...
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Again sorry for no updates. I did participate in our main event where I finished 2nd in first start. After couple of laps in second start the water pump motor gave up again and all the water came out so I retired. Luckily the engine didn't overheat enough to blow a gasket or anything else. That was confirmed on track test after I built a toothbelt drive for the pump from the crank.

Now after season I haven't done much yet. I'm trying to make the WB lambda feedback work between Tech Edge wb-controller and KMS ecu but no success yet. Then I'm going to measure everything regarding dimensioning intake and exhaust and try to figure out what's causing the low power at high rpms.

Slide throttle itself is working fine. :-)

I just found a nice gallery of action shots from the main event Historic Grand Race 2007.

http://www.juhakarjalainen.fi/jabax/portal/galleria/index.php?dir=./Historic_Grand_Race_2007
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

I'll put this here too if someone has any ideas later!!

"
Hello. Wake up all the engine guru's!

I really need help to solve the low power mystery with my engine. The problem is that torque curve cuts down right after 5000...5500 rpms so the power output is only at about 200hp. I would expect figures like 230...240 from this setup. The earlier engine setup gave a nice flat torque curve from 4000 all the way to 7000 rpms.

Otherwise engine is running well. Compressions are even. Nothing wrong.

I'm asking if people who really have understanding about race engines and/or access to simulation software could point out my problem. Wild guesses are ok too to give some ideas.
I have a .pdf document including all the data about the engine dimensioning with pictures. It was too big to attach here. I will send the pdf to anyone willing to try to help me. Please contact me at tomi.heinonen(at)konecranes.com

Here's some basic info about the engine. And more about the car at my blog thread http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,50/page,viewtopic/t,269120/

GOODFELLAS EVOIII engine

JE pistons, 90mm bore
Hemi head 11,8:1 compression ratio
Dr Schrick 39/48 valves
Runners smoothened, valve seats radiused
Tall 146mm rods
Dry sump
Crank std balanced
Cam copy of Dr Schrick 316. With big bearings and base circle like the real thing.


Last engine modifications:
- stock valves changed to Schrick 39/48, seats radiused
- double Dr Schrick valve springs + titanium retainers+ billet rockers
- 45mm webers with 36mm throats replaced by KMS injection system with homemade slide throttle intake
- Crane HI6 ignition replaced by KMS distributorless wasted spark system
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting! "
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Hi Tommy. I haven't been here for a while. I don't have time to fully read and analyze but I did get that you made the custom slide throttle (awesome). i also saw that you have the injectors post throttle. I agree on your reasoning and there is also the fire safety issue to consider. BUT, the reason all the Schnitzer etc. slide throttles had the injectors pre throttle was for better atomization which gets more critical as the RPM goes up. Modern systems have such a high PSI that they atomize with no problem. What pump are you running and what is the PSI?
Sorry if you have already thought of some of this...just trying to help and maybe it will trigger a solution in your mind.

Next, Ignition. What is your advance curve at when the torque goes down. It could be not enough advance to get a thorough burn during combustion.

The power drop you discribe seems like it's starving for fuel to me.
So look at the two basic systems Fuel and Ignition for that RPM range. Is it getting enough atomization, enough fuel, and enough advance to burn the fuel.

Hope that helps. If all fails, go back to your old setup and just go racing.[/i]

Good thoughts but I think they should be ok.
- fuel pressure is about 2.9bar which is 42PSI I think - should be ok?
- Wideband lambda should tell if it's starving for fuel - WB was ok on dyno.
- Atomization - that's hard to tell
- Ignition advance was set at 36, then I took couple of degrees down at high rpm's for safety. I was advised so. I don't think it's safe to run more advance than that.(?)

I would try with Weber's but I sold them so buy the injection :-(

thanks, Tommy

JK wrote:

Hi Tommy. I haven't been here for a while. I don't have time to fully read and analyze but I did get that you made the custom slide throttle (awesome). i also saw that you have the injectors post throttle. I agree on your reasoning and there is also the fire safety issue to consider. BUT, the reason all the Schnitzer etc. slide throttles had the injectors pre throttle was for better atomization which gets more critical as the RPM goes up. Modern systems have such a high PSI that they atomize with no problem. What pump are you running and what is the PSI? Sorry if you have already thought of some of this...just trying to help and maybe it will trigger a solution in your mind. Next, Ignition. What is your advance curve at when the torque goes down. It could be not enough advance to get a thorough burn during combustion. The power drop you discribe seems like it's starving for fuel to me. So look at the two basic systems Fuel and Ignition for that RPM range. Is it getting enough atomization, enough fuel, and enough advance to burn the fuel. Hope that helps. If all fails, go back to your old setup and just go racing.[/i]

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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Tommy, I've always run 39 deg. advance with 105-110 octane race fuel. 40 would be max.
Please post all of your injection specifications and maybe someone can help. What's the pump, air metering devise, is it pulse injection, what's the ECU etc. etc.

Some more ideas:
I would look at your pressure at the injector. That seems low for the atomization you need that close to the valve. Modern systems are WAY higher than that at the fuel rail, and at high RPM you need it atomized or it won't fully burn. Also your spray duration may need some tuning and/or advancing. Your fuel pump may also be falling behind during maximum volume demand..you can put two in series. Your volume may be correct but a higher pressure at the injector will have better atomization.

borrowed from rceng.com

"Our fuel pump dyno can test many different types of electric fuel pumps. We can adjust the voltage to gauge what differences they would have on flow vs. pressure. We usually start the test at 35 PSIG and end at about 110PSIG. Many in tank pumps have an internal bleed off, or pop off valve, that limits maximum pressure, and usually operates in the 60 to 70 PSIG range. This test tells you exactly what the Horsepower value, or limit of your pump is.

If you are increasing the horsepower of your engine by 30%, - your fuel pump may not be capable of delivering enough fuel to support the desired horsepower increase.

Example: If you have a pump that supports 200 BHP, Natural Aspirated, it will have to produce at least 100 Lbs. of fuel Per/Hr at system pressure. (Break Specific Fuel Consummation of .50 is considered normal for NA engines.) At the target Horsepower of 260 BHP the pump will have to produce at least 130 Lbs. of fuel Per/Hr ,at your system pressure, to meet your requirements, and may not be able to provide this additional fuel.

Our test will tell you exactly what horsepower your pump will support from 35 PSIG to maximum pump PSIG."

also

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/9975/dataBySubject/EFImods.html

Think about the combustion process. at high RPM you have milliseconds to light the fuel on fire before full compression. The higher octane fuels need more advance because the burn is slower. The advance also guarantees a thourough burn peaking just before full compression creating the most power.


I'm no guru, I'm just coming up with ideas that I would try if I where in your shoes.

I use european 98 oct pump gas. It will be tested on dyno if there's benefit from higher advance. Based on experience 36...38 is about maximum with our gas.

My fuel pump is just normal Bosch from some BMW. I think it's ok because I don't see any drop in pressure with maximum power. Maybe the pressure could be a bit higher. I don't have adjustable regulator though.

Ecu is KMS, Kronenburg management system, with only TPS, crank and temp sensors.

I'll post you the detail .pdf if you give your address.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Pull your new air box/filter setup off and see what happens.At least then you`ll know there`s nothing wrong with them !!!!
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RHD 2000ti NK sedan VIN 1400318 resto
RHD 2000ti NK sedan VIN 1400178 parts
RHD 1800 NK sedan VIN 0998094 parts
RHD 320i E21 5 speed parts
RHD 1602 ? twin mikunis,5 speed. POS driver

I've prepared a plan what to try to find the missing horses.
- Exhaust manifold is dimensioned for too low rpms. I will change the pipe diameter and length after collector. Otherwise it should be ok.
- Cam may be timed a bit too early. I made marks so I can adjust it few degrees at dyno.
- I will try without the airbox to see if it is restricting.
- I will prepare some parts to try different intake runner lengths.
- I will hopefully get the lambda feedback work with the injection so work in the dyno would be quicker.

Other things done.
- Checked bearings - ok.
- Found cracks in the clutch disk again. Used only for last summer.
- Fixed cracks in the oil sump. Welded steel sump is not the best solution.
- Fixed crack in the fuel pressure regulator mount.
I wonder what else could crack...?

If the result is noticeably better after this I will be racing next season. If not - I'm not sure...Anyone want to buy a racer(in Finland)?
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Hey tommy,
I hope you get it figured and can race. your project has been very inspiring and I would love to see it continue. good luck with everything.

Jake

Thanks for spurring. I also found the airbox is cracked all over. I think I'm losing it. Then I can make different length velocity stacks quite easily for testing. I already ordered a meter of 80*40mm nylon tube so hopefully I'm able to turn them to stacks.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Im very curious to see what results you get from testing different stack lengts.

maybe even try a staggered stack height......like on can am cars.....




maybe also point them in different directions so they don't have to shar airflow from the next trumpet.
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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

found the picture I was thinking about....it's an Alfa WTCC car.
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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

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Here's the stacks finished. I wasn't able to do all what Pedro suggested but I'm quite happy. ;-) I'm also making new rollbar links mounted to struts.Like all the other guys but I started it before. :-P Just test fitting in the picture.

And our ragdoll taking care I don't spend all the time in FAQ.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

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Still no luck with dyno. AARRGH! Everything what we tried changed the result worse.

Different stack lengths only gave minor difference. Longest were the best. Shorter ones gave lightly more power at max rpm but the peak was still lower.

Adjusting cam couple of degrees later - > worse.

In total the maximum power was lower than year ago even with the best combination. Maybe because of crank driven water pump and sock type airfilters.

It was suggsted that compression pressure should be higher to work at so high rpm and give more power. Other thing said was that the earlier dyno that gave different shape of torque gives very optimistic results of torque at high rpms. So in reality the engine maybe has not gone worse but anyway numbers are low for this stage tune.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

interesting.....maybe this is why in the old days BMW motorsport used such long stacks....



what are the power results when compared to the previous weber DCOE configuration?
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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

Results cannot be compared because DCOE config was measured in a different dyno. I have heard now from different sources that the dyno gives very optimistic results at high rpms.

How would it show if injectors are too close to cylinder and fuel doesn't have enough time to vaporize? Would it show as low power or some kind of misbehavior?
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

I think that injector positioning maybe part of you problems.....as I had talked about in my previous posts.

I think it is something you should try, shouldn't be that hard to move them...maybe it is.

Like I said every High efficiency output engine these days has shower type injectors.

....looking at these factory motorsport engines I pictured below it looks like even back in the 1970's they figured it out in a similar fashion. The injectors are waay out there and the trumpets are very long!!

Also, my step father is a professional race engine builder I will email him and see what he says.......he mostly build nissan/datsun race engine for scca racing. Unfortunately he live in kansas (im in California).

Maybe he can shed some light on this. He as thousands of hours in a engine dyno room and decades of experience.




If you look closely you can see the injector placement in all of these pictures...... there has to be a good reason for this.....you have yours exactly oposite location.....really close to the valves....






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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

one more....

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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/

Well it not easy at least. It's quite impossible to attach them on the nylon stacks. It would be a chance to mount them outside stack opening but then it's impossible to use any air filters. I don't like that risk. So...?

<<<<
I think it is something you should try, shouldn't be that hard to move them...maybe it is.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

Do you have room to for an airbox with a large filter up front ? if you do you could do something similar to ducati's new 1098 and mount the fuel lines and injectors on the outside of the airbox with the nozzle of the injector poking through above each stack.

ha ha i just noticed you already have an airbox made. great car by the way.

Thanks, yep I had the airbox for last season. Now I took it out to try the different length stacks. Also it was cracked from many of the weldings even though it was made of rather thick 2mm aluminum.
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Racing is Life - everything before and after is just waiting!

nice video of a cool '02 racer with slide throttle .....nice views

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrNoBzVsziE
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68' 1602
98' ///M3 Sedan

88' ///M3 Sold *
06' ///M3 Competition Pkg Sold *

http://www.bmw1602.com/